Dr. McDougall's Health & Medical Center
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:35 am 
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momof4 wrote:
So, instead of focusing on what I thought was the negative part of Dr McDougall's diet (no added fats), I SHOULD have been focusing on the positive--[b]fill up on starches! [/b]


...with the addition of fruits and veggies.

Thank You!

You just summarized 6 months and over 1000 posts of mine! :)

In Health
Jeff

PS dont forget to go for a walk!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:07 am 
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JeffN wrote:
Thank You!
You just summarized 6 months and over 1000 posts of mine! :)


Great! Now, do my family and I get a free trip to Costa Rica???? ;)

Honestly, I've had a love/hate relationship with Dr McDougall all this time (and he doesn't even know it... :) ). I read his books and newsletters, watch him on DVDs smiling and saying "it's so easy" and knowing he's probably thinking, "why don't people GET it?" but I guess from focusing on the negatives it was very frustrating to me, and I really lost his main message--the one that really separates his program from others. But I'm glad I stuck around, knowing deep-down that he was speaking the truth, and yet knowing that I was missing some key to understanding it. I guess sometimes we need to hear something MANY times, or worded differently, to really understand!

And yes, I do walk, bike, and just began ice-skating lessons with my children!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:19 am 
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I am just amazed at how many people are getting a new revelation from this post asking the difference between the Essentlyn and McDougall plan. Including myself.

I am still not clear where starches fit into Dr Essy's plan. I assume he considers them plants and like all plants, starches from plants are allowed. Perhaps he just doesn't consider one plant food the center of the eating plan like Dr. Mc. If Jeff N could clarify this for me (us), I would be grateful.

I am real clear now on Dr. Mc's plan: a starch centered meal with added fruits and veggies and Jeff's meal plan (showing the amounts at each meal) add to my clarification of what a meal should look like. I think what is really important in making a starch centered plan succeed is not to add any fats/oroils because it adds 100% fat to the meal. That, I have come to believe will ruin what we are trying to do for our health and pack on the extra pounds.

I need to learn how to use the Chron o Meter so I can track how many starches I actually eat. I suspect I don't eat nearly enough either and I believe there were lots of folks with us in Costa Rica who didn't get it yet either. It is amazing how something so simple can be so hard to grasp. I sure hope that lots read this thread as it is a real eye opener. Thanks Clary and Jeff N......Your both amazing.

If one is looking for a good site with great recipes that are mostly) McD approved, Susan Voision has the best. www.fatfreevegan.com She is amazing. I had the pleasure of meeting her at McDougall's Celebrity Chef weeked last month as she was one of the presentors. She is really a down to earth, warm, healthful cook. I use alot of her recipes, especially the Smoke Refried Black Bean Soup (more like a chili). In fact, I made it last night. It is delicious. I do add a little more spice than she calls for but the Smoky Paprika and the Chipolte Chili Powder is a must......Enjoy Diane

Diane


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 Post subject: Re: Plant based diet vs starch based diet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:08 am 
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JeffN wrote:
If you follow the guidelines and principles recommended here, you will cover the basics without having to count servings.

Let me expound on this.

If you follow a starch based diet with the addition of fruit and green and yellow veggies at each meal, and consume enough to maintain your healthy weight then your day "may" look something "generically" like this...

(using averages for calories and serving sizes)

Breakfast:
Whole Grains (2 cups) 320 calories
Fresh Fruit (1 cup) 120 calories

Lunch:
Starchy Vegetable (2 cups) 320 calories
Legumes (1/2 cup) 120 calories
Veggies (2 cups of salad, soup and/or steamed veggies) 100 calories
Fruit (1 serving) 60 calories

Dinner:
Starchy Vegetable (2 cups) 320 calories
Legumes (1/2 cup) 120 calories
Veggies (2 cups of salad, soup and/or steamed veggies) 100 calories
Fruit (1 serving) 60 calories

Thats 12 servings of Starchy Veggies/Whole Grains and 960 calories

Thats 3 servings of Legumes and 240 calories

Thats 8 servings of veggies and 200 calories
Thats 4 servings of fruit and 240 calories

thats 12 servings of fruits and veggies but only 1640 calories.

Of course, you could adjust the fruits, veggies, starchy veggies, etc up or down somewhat to fit your own preference, but the end results would be fairly similar.

And for those who want, add in a serving of nuts/seeds or avocado and that's another 175 calories and you are at ~1800 calories.
Not bad! And simple and easy.

BTW, those are also some fairly large sized and filling meals. :)

In Health
Jeff

PS when neighbors, friends and families ask me how many servings of fresh fruits veggies, starchy veggies, intact whole grains and legumes they should eat or feed to their children, my answer is always the same ...

....as much as you can.


Just a note:

The above "example" was provided only as an example of what a day "might" look like when following a "starch based" diet with the addition of fruits and vegetable and also achieve the recommendations of at least "5-9" fruits & veggies a day. If you were to follow it, that would be OK & as I mentioned, it is a lot of food for not many calories. But do not feel obligated to follow it to the "T".

It is only an example and as I also mentioend....

Of course, you could adjust the fruits, veggies, starchy veggies, etc up or down somewhat to fit your own preference, but the end results would be fairly similar.

If smaller more frequent meals work better for you, then split the numbers up into smaller meals. If 2 or 3 larger meals work for you, so be it.

My guidelines (in general) are..

1) "Eat when you are hungry (from the recommended healthy foods) untill you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself & don't stuff yourself.

2) when hungry again, see guideline #1 ;)

We are more likely to overeat if we eat when we are not hungry. Our satiety mechanisms work much better when we eat when hungry, making it much harder to overeat. Looks at kids who have not been corrupted by junk food. When they are hungry... watch out. But just try & get them to eat when they are not. ;)

Also, hunger (not starvation) has also been asociated with increased cognitive functioning, increased memory & an increased sense of well being. Perhaps it is a built-in survival mechansim as we would have needed sharper mental functioning in relation to finding food and remembering where we found it, when hungry.

There used to be an old saying, "full stomach, empty head".

The earlier work on frequent meal consumption (in regard to blood sugar, cholesterol etc) has never really worked out. Recent work out of the CRON studies has shown benefit in reduced meal frequency and intermittant fasting, though this may not be for everyone.

However, the bottom line is to do what works for you within the context of the general guidelines & principles. So, if small frequent meals works for you, and makes following the plan easier, then please folllow it.

In Health,
Jeff


Last edited by JeffN on Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:16 am 
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Thank you all for another really great thread!

The starch centered idea may be my solution to remain healthy and active during the harsh winter we have around here. I usually end up adding animal foods on a daily basis in the winter because I get too cold and my level of physical activities (cross-country skiing and hiking mostly) is too demanding. I don't mind small quantities of occasional animal products in my diet but everyday is too much for me. Last time I tried to remain vegan in the winter I was eating lots of nuts plus avocados and various vegetable oils for extra calories from fats. It did not work. Now I am thinking that focusing on starch rich foods might be a much better approach.

I'll let you know in few months when it starts snowing. I love winter when I feel strong and warm but it is miserable if I feel weak and depleted.

At this time I feel very energetic on McDougall diet and went for a vigorous mountain hike of 20 kilometers (+- 12 miles) yesterday without feeling tired at all. Wonderful! I live at the foot of a small mountain which is also a protected Natural Reservation. I feel very privileged to have all the energy I need to hike this little jewel.


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 Post subject: Re: Plant based diet vs starch based diet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:34 am 
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clary i come thanking you for writing this. for careing to help others understand. a so verygood explanation of the starch . i will use the clear words about the starch to now better talk about the dr mcdougall healthy program to my family&my friends

Clary wrote:

I'm certainly not Jeff, but will add some of my thoughts to what has been posted.

I think yours is an excellent question! --and an important one for those of us who wish to try to closely follow Dr. McDougall's programs, as he designed them to obtain the most improvement and the most lasting success; and the "starch" component is not often emphasized here on the board. Without the starches as the center of the meals, it's not "McDougalling." :?

Soon after we moved to this "new" Dr. McDougall-hosted board from the VegSource hosted board, I noticed that for some unknown reason, more and more frequently, people used the term "Vegan" when referring to Dr. McDougall's program. He separates himself purposely from the vegetarian and vegan categories. He defines his program as a STARCH-Based (or starch-centered) Program, as you pointed out.

His program IS different from a plant-based diet because of his emphasis on the regular, repeated use of starches as the --center-- of the diet. As far as I know, his teachings are unique in this respect.

If you have the 12 Days to Dynamic Health book, the STARCH STAPLES are listed on pp. 94 and 95. (My copy of the book was printed in 1991.) Or see the recommended STARCHES here at the Free Program: http://www.drmcdougall.com/free_4b.html

There are at least 75 high-starchy foods listed in my book, and the website list is probably updated from the list in the book. These foods are meant to be the foods Dr.McDougall's programs are "centered" around in our meals. A person could be eating a totally plant-based diet and yet never eat even one bite of the McDougall recommended starchy foods.

All the starchy foods on the McDougall "Starch Staples" list come from plants or are made from plants, (are "plant-based"), but all plants or plant-based foods aren't necessarily starches. :unibrow:

Dr. McDougall often uses the term starch-centered (starch-based), meaning the meals in his programs are centered around or planned around the starches in the meals. The starch at meals is the "main dish". In the 12 Days book, for example, in the publisher's note: "The McDougall Program uses a starch-centered diet with the addition of fruits and vegetables."

In the same book Dr. McDougall says, "A starch-based diet is one of the fundamentals of the McDougall Program"; --and, "Of all the misconceptions I once held about nutrition, the idea that starches are fattening was the easiest for me to correct"; --and, "Follow a diet centered around starches with the addition of fresh or frozen fruits and vegetables"; --and, "From the first day our patients eat carefully prepared and mouth-watering meals featuring starches...."; --and, "The Essentials [of 12 day program]: A health-supporting twelve-day diet in which you eat starches, vegetables, and fruits high in complex carbohydrates and fiber and low in fat, and judicious daily [moderate] exercise"; --and, "My recommendations: Follow the McDougall Program. A low-fat, no-cholesterol, starch-based diet..." ; --and many other references to his starch-centered or starch-based food plans.

As often as he mentions that his programs are Starch-Centered, that "piece" of the program seems sometimes not to be noticed and dwelled upon or discussed as much as other principles of his program are; or is somehow overlooked, for one reason or another. I know it took a while for the "Starch-Centerdness" principle to sink in for me :!:, and even longer for me to learn to plan ahead for it and implement it! :?

I can still remember how amazing I felt, and how long I felt "full" and satisfied, and how my appetite calmed down, and my cravings went away once I finally "got it" about starch being the center of my meals (and changed my thinking about "potatoes being fattening", etc. :) ), as he teaches. A person can be a practicing vegetarian (as I considered myself), or a strict vegan, or a raw foodist, or faithfully following a "plant-based diet" and yet never eat even one starchy food! :eek:

Whereas, as a SAD eater the question, "What's for dinner/supper?" was usually answered with "chicken, fish, meatloaf, steak, pork chops", etc.; a starch-centered diet names the starch of the meal for what we are having as "the meal": "We're having rice, wheat, potatoes, corn, oats, millet, noodles, yams, acorn squash, garbanzos/limas/navy beans, peas, lentils, etc. --(with added fruits or/and vegetables)."

Instead of "Where's the beef?", McDougallers ask, "Where's the Starch?" ;-) --and then build the meal around that starch, like some of us might have built a meal around meat in the past.

A person could be on a plant-based diet and drink fresh juices, and blend delicious smoothies with added green veges and fruits, eat nuts, eat big salads with a variety of colorful raw or cooked veges, eat "fake" vegetarian meats and "fake" cheeses, tofu dishes, eat lots of luscious fresh fruit and leafy greens, and NOT be following a McDougall starch-centered diet. That's a choice. Choosing "McDougalling" includes the regular addition of the starchy foods at meals.

Jeff recently posted an excellent sample menu plan/guide for a McDougall Starch-Based diet, and he lists a starch as the center of each meal:

JeffN wrote:
JeffN wrote:
If you follow the guidelines and principles recommended here, you will cover the basics without having to count servings.


Let me expound on this.

If you follow a starch based diet with the addition of fruit and green and yellow veggies at each meal, and consume enough to maintain your healthy weight then your day "may" look something "generically" like this...

(using averages for calories and serving sizes)

Breakfast:
Whole Grains (2 cups) 320 calories
Fresh Fruit (1 cup) 120 calories

Lunch:
Starchy Vegetable (2 cups) 320 calories
Legumes (1/2 cup) 120 calories
Veggies (2 cups of salad, soup and/or steamed veggies) 100 calories
Fruit (1 serving) 60 calories

Dinner:
Starchy Vegetable (2 cups) 320 calories
Legumes (1/2 cup) 120 calories
Veggies (2 cups of salad, soup and/or steamed veggies) 100 calories
Fruit (1 serving) 60 calories

Thats 12 servings of Starchy Veggies/Whole Grains and 960 calories

Thats 3 servings of Legumes and 240 calories

Thats 8 servings of veggies and 200 calories
Thats 4 servings of fruit and 240 calories

thats 12 servings of fruits and veggies but only 1640 calories.

Of course, you could adjust the fruits, veggies, starchy veggies, etc up or down somewhat to fit your own preference, but the end results would be fairly similar.

And for those who want, add in a serving of nuts/seeds or avocado and that's another 175 calories and you are at ~1800 calories.

Not bad! And simple and easy.

BTW, those are also some fairly large sized and filling meals. :)

In Health
Jeff

PS when neighbors, friends and families ask me how many servings of fresh fruits veggies, starchy veggies, intact whole grains and legumes they should eat or feed to their children, my answer is always the same ...

....as much as you can. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STARCH-CENTERED is the difference in and the key to success on a Dr. McDougall program, compared to "plant-based" or vegan, or vegetarian, yet the STARCH is sometimes overlooked. We can be sincerely compliant as "a vegetarian" or "a vegan" or as "plant-based", and yet not meet the suggested guidelines for being a Starch-Centered "McDougaller".

I break into a big grin :D Every Single Time I read "mmm..... potatoes." at the end of Mrs. Doodlepunk's posts!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Hi Debbie:
A good question. What Dr. McDougall's site says re Starch Staples is this:

Egg Free Pastas - Pastas come in many shapes including spaghetti, macaroni, lasagna noodles, flat noodles, spirals, wheels, alphabet noodles. Most of these are made from highly refined flours and therefore should play a small role in your diet
artichoke pasta
tomato pasta
corn pasta (no wheat)
whole wheat pasta
spinach pasta
rice pasta (no wheat)

So, I think, sadly, pasta should not be a starch centered meal staple but used sparingly......Boo hoo but true![/b]


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:28 pm 
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It's my perception that it's the white pastas that should play the very small role. The whole wheat pastas (or other whole grain pastas) sit as being more calorie dense and processed than, say potatoes and rice, but far less than breads because they have much more water in them.

I've always been under the impression that whole grain pastas could form the starch base for some (not all) of the meals on the regular McDougall program. Of course in the context of added fruits and vegetables...

But I've been wrong before. :D


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:39 pm 
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karin_kiwi wrote:
It's my perception that it's the white pastas that should play the very small role. The whole wheat pastas (or other whole grain pastas) sit as being more calorie dense and processed than, say potatoes and rice, but far less than breads because they have much more water in them.

I've always been under the impression that whole grain pastas could form the starch base for some (not all) of the meals on the regular McDougall program. Of course in the context of added fruits and vegetables...

But I've been wrong before. :D


I think you are right, Karin. Pastas fall in between whole grains and bread. How much a role they play in one's diet is going to be an individual matter.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:25 pm 
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serenity wrote:
karin_kiwi wrote:
It's my perception that it's the white pastas that should play the very small role. The whole wheat pastas (or other whole grain pastas) sit as being more calorie dense and processed than, say potatoes and rice, but far less than breads because they have much more water in them.

I've always been under the impression that whole grain pastas could form the starch base for some (not all) of the meals on the regular McDougall program. Of course in the context of added fruits and vegetables...

But I've been wrong before. :D


I think you are right, Karin. Pastas fall in between whole grains and bread. How much a role they play in one's diet is going to be an individual matter.


Karin is correct.

Whole grain pasta even though it is processed, is lower in calorie density than all other processed carbs/grains. The reason is, when you cook it, you cook it in water and it absorbs a fair amount of the water. This lowers its calorie density to around 600-700 calories per pound, depending on how long you cook it. The longer you cook it, the more water it absorbs, and the lower its calorie density. This is also true for white pasta, as the calorie density would be the same, but whole wheat pasta would be slightly more filling due to the higher fiber content, and more nutritious and would be the better choice.

In Health
Jeff


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:40 pm 
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What you are saying makes sense re whole wheat but I took this right off of the McDougall Free Program site under
Starch Staples." Wasn't this written by Dr. McDougall? Maybe he could clarify but whole wheat pasta is listed as is artichoke pasta, spinach pasta and rice pasta with no wheat........Please clarify Diane


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:48 pm 
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dianeb1944 wrote:
What you are saying makes sense re whole wheat but I took this right off of the McDougall Free Program site under
Starch Staples." Wasn't this written by Dr. McDougall? Maybe he could clarify but whole wheat pasta is listed as is artichoke pasta, spinach pasta and rice pasta with no wheat........Please clarify Diane


I am not sure of the question you are asking.

My comments above include comments in regard to processed grains. They are highly processed and refined but in regard to calorie density, they are almost as low as unrefined unprocessed grains.

Perhaps you could clarify your question for me.

Thanks

In Health
Jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:37 am 
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Sorry Jeff. I missed the content of your reply. You are not saying anything different than Dr. McD said on the website. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Got it straight now. :-D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:45 am 
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dianeb1944 wrote:
Sorry Jeff. I missed the content of your reply. You are not saying anything different than Dr. McD said on the website. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Got it straight now. :-D


Great!!

Hope all is going well with your continued adventure!

In Health
Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Plant based diet vs starch based diet
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:59 am 
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A plant-based diet is not necessarily a starch-based diet.

A person could be eating foods 100% from plant sources without eating starches. Dr. McDougall defines his "diet" as "A starch-centered diet with the addition of fruits and vegetables, with no added oils; and with moderate exercise."

If one chooses to follow Dr. McDougall's plan, daily meals are centered around starches.

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