Discussion Board

It seems I am butting heads with my wife when it comes to the science and supporting evidence presented by Dr. McDougall for this way of eating. I am fully on board following this "diet" and reaping the benefits and rewards. My wife follows it to a lesser degree, not completely convinced "a vegan lifestyle is good for you" yet she eats just about everything I cook. There are times she will go non-McD and eat meat or food with oil or even ice.

The problem lies in the middle, our 6-year old son. I have got into the habit of trying to teach him good food from not so good or "bad" food and try to explain the reason why. I know schooling will brainwash kids with the basic food groups or the pyramid or whatever gimmick the USDA is using these days. I figure I can give him a good basis in his developmental years and then he can take it from there.

Unfortunately the wife disagrees and doesn't believe a "vegan" (her term) diet is "healthy" for a growing boy. Allegedly it stunts brain development (her words). Not sure what studies she has undertaken in the past, rather hearing rumors or myth from others. She then told me that this isn't a sustainable lifestyle that I will be missing nutrients and vitamins and that supplements are a must, especially for a young child growing up.

I stopped arguing with her because no matter what I said or cited she would counter it with something unsubstantiated. It's frustrating. I am frustrated and not surprised that my wife is just as frustrated with me when it comes to raising our 6 years and the regiment of his diet.

She won't take the time to watch FoK or read any of McDougall's books. I can't get her to read anything from Campbell or Esselstyn. Yet she holds firm to the believe that what I am doing is not the best for me. How do I go about sharing evidence and making my points about this lifestyle. Better yet, how do we find a happy medium (if there is one) for a 6 year old boy. I would rather he get both sides from his parents than one side from his education when it comes to nutrition and the lies the meat and dairy industry continue to feed Americans.

What got this all started was my comment about having to give him milk tonight with dinner, when I told my son he should acquire the taste for almond milk or better yet drink water. That didn't sit well with my wife.

Comments? Ideas?

If your wife won't read and she won't watch and she won't listen to you how can you convince her of anything regarding the vegan diet for your son? She's not teachable.

Have you told her that children all over the world live off diets that have little to no dairy, eggs and/or meat and are perfectly healthy? The important thing is to monitor your children and ensure that they are getting everything they need.

As long as you are careful anyone can thrive on a vegan diet, regardless of age. It has already been proven multiple times in studies and by the perfectly healthy vegan children running around our country.

There are more unhealthy children eating a non-vegan diet.

As long as you provide your child with a diet that has a wide range of foods in it, and supplementing B12 he should be fine.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I think for now all you can do is think of this just for you. She's not receptive and will keep resisting if you push it. Nutrition is like religion to people and it's nearly impossible to change someones mind. I had to find this myself and would not have listened if it had been pushed on me. Maybe if you quietly keep going, she will see the benefits you are getting and she will be more receptive. It's all you can hope for. As far as your son, that's tough. It would be like having 2 parents of different faiths. He will have to make up his own mind. I can tell you that I talked to my son about stopping dairy. He read that part of the McDougall book and he was willing to give it a try. Buy he's 11 and I'm his only parent so it's easier for us. He has been dairy free for a few weeks now and says he feels much better. Good luck!

Stoumi,

I definitely understand how you feel. My husband believes as your wife does, and he refuses to listen to the evidence about a plant-based diet. We have a son who's 9 and a daughter who's 2 and a 1/2.

Now that the issue has come up between you and your wife, I think it would be good for you all to establish a compromise. I know it may not be idea, but having your son eat mostly or even some plant-based meals is better than nothing.

A compromise for you all may be allowing him to drink milk on some nights and drink water/almond milk on some. Another example would be allowing him to choose 2 or 3 school lunches he wants to eat a week then pack a plant-based lunch for him on the other days.

I think you all can find a happy medium if both of you are willing to respect each other's decisions as parents. I would encourage you to continue to eat healthy and serve as a role model to your wife and your son because in the end, people become convinced by the results, and living with you daily she can see whether the plan is a joke or not. Also, don't lose hope for your son adopting this way of eating. When he leaves home he may make the decision to do so based on your example and the fact that he wasn't forced to do it.

Sorry for the long post. I'm so passionate about this topic, and I'm hoping I can be of help to you and your family.

if you have the money take the family on the McDougall Costa Rica trip, its a really laid back easy fun way to nudge people into this way of life.

In my opinion, a good marital relationship is more important than how you are feeding your son. Your wife is not feeding him french fries and KFC every night I'm assuming. While we McDougallers believe that dairy is the arch enemy, I don't think it will harm him in ways that having continual conflicts with your wife over food will.

I like the previous post. Try to come to a compromise and avoid being too dogmatic about your position. Your child will benefit from two parents who show mutual respect and tolerance for each other's views.

Good luck and try to look at the big picture.

Excellent advice..You cannot force your wife to believe, if she won't listen..trust me I know from experience..I have lived this life for more than 15 years..Hubby was not a follower, and to this day even after having a quadruple bypass last year....He is not on board 100% and to be honest..he probably never will be....He is eating healthier, and I can live with that.
Why don't you try and introduce new foods to your son and just see if he likes it...if he does..your wife can't argue about that...

In a sense, I can understand not trusting books like McDougall's or Esselstyn's or Campbell's because, after all, authors will write anything to make a buck, right?

But would she believe a "trusted" government source such as the American Dietetic Association? Their official position paper states, in part:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

You can Google to see the full abstract, which is very short, so perhaps she might be willing to read it.

Good luck and 73,
Robin

This is really great advice here from everyone. I am also living this battle which I am winning. I have backed off considerably since it was causing a great deal of stress.

I have explained to my husband how important this is, but he just doesn't believe it. I make sure my kids get plenty of fruit. I make them a green smoothie for most dinners. Since I am in charge of meals, I usually make a grain or pasta dish and add very small amounts of meat. I never serve just meat alone. I always stretch the meat. I keep a crumbled nut loaf in the freezer. I add about half of that to hamburger to stretch it out and no one knows any different. I have done this with chicken as well and mix in about 1/2 seitan chunks and 1/2 chicken.

I also know that denying them what others are eating can lead to rebellion when they get out on there own so I do allow them a small dessert and am a little more liberal on the weekends. Fortunately my kids were never milk drinkers and my kids will consume other types of milk with cereal or in recipes.

I constantly talk with my daughter about the benefits of a plant based diet and how that with help her with less cramping and discomfort when she starts her menstrual cycle. I try to talk up the positive side with my kids about a plant based diet. We can only do our best and hope when they get old enough to make their own decisions they will take the right path.

Kris

@Oregonmom, you said "Nutrition is like religion to people and it's nearly impossible to change someones mind." I feel now that I have opened my mind to a different way of viewing food and accepted the changes, I find myself as a nutritional zealot at times, reading labels, steering clear of foods that I should not be eating or buying when I am shopping. I am looking out for the health of my family. I recall my parents (misguidedly) doing the same thing when I was growing up.

@Proverbs31woman, I do feel we have a compromise to a degree. I never pushed this way of eating on her when I started last October. To her credit she has followed fairly close, treating herself much more than I do, but I won't fault her for the changes she has seen in her weight loss and (hopefully) in the improved numbers from her upcoming lipid panel.

I do believe my son is eating better, still not to the level I would like to see it, but it's a start. And knowing my son as I do, he does look up to me so I am sure the ball is in my court, so to speak that the words I say will have a profound affect on him as he grows up and starts making his own decisions.

@yvie, you are right he isn't being fed Taco Bell or McDonalds on a regular basis. In fact those sort of meals have really been cut way back, which is good for everyone. Still I see some of the processed foods that come home from Costco and all I can do is shake my head in disgust. It's not just the dairy, but a combination with the processed foods. Hopefully we can slowly ween off the processed foods in lieu healthy foods, especially for school lunches.

@healthyvegan, I would love to vacation in Costa Rica, not sure if it's feasible or not right now. I have proposed the in house program to her before but there didn't seem to be much interest. Maybe the Costa Rica idea would be more well received, I haven't looked into that at this point.

@Quinoamania, she like a few "friends" of mine can't believe I am throwing my belief and full support behind Dr. McDougall. For example, here is one quote, "I think it's amusing that a guy who hates is regular doctors and wouldn't trust them as far as he would throw them (he is talking about me) follows his off-center food doctor to the ends of logic." It's logic like this that makes no sense to me. Like many of you on these discussion boards, we know there is science behind this way of eating, nothing "off-center" about how we feel satiated when we eat. I have brought up studies, names like Campbell, Esselstyn, Novick and McDougall, yet it seems many still believe in what comes from the meat and dairy industry as well as from other government sources, like ADA and AHA.

I do know the entire family is eating better, while neither my wife or son are completely complaint they have made some very good steps in accepting what I have embraced. Maybe I need to look at myself and stop "pushing" some of the views I feel passionate about and let food happen. I can only change one person, myself. Hopefully the changes my family members see will have an effect on them.

As you have clearly learned in this thread you are not alone. This is a common issue in places where there is more than one person. Kids complicate things even further and become lightning rods for the issue.
There is no easy or right way to handle this that doesn't cause grief for one of the parties. What is the smoothest, least confrontational way to deal with the issue is going to be different with each situation. Since you live in that environment you have a better handle on what to say or do on a daily basis than any of us.
For many here it's a waiting game. Hoping the light bulb comes on for the other partner before they are dead at their own hands. If bypass isn't enough to send a wake up call to your partner there is little you are going to say that will. Some never get the message. We bury thousand every day, needlessly. I came close, several here did also. It's a tough thing to live through for you because you know this would turn your partners health around and get them going in the right direction. You see it clearly but your eyes are not theirs. That can drive you crazy and at some point you have to keep yourself from going off the deep end. There is no magic wand or perfect phrase that will make the light bulb come on for that other person. If you are fortunate they will come to that realization before it's too late. It obviously doesn't help if they are unwilling to look at other possibilities to finding better health. Some of this may be related to my other thread on a person possibly feeling a loss of control if they follow this program. A dietary change can seem like a very personal loss for some.
I have no answer for you , only hope. What may flip the switch for your partner might be just around the corner. I'd prepare myself for the alternative, regardless. Seeing the contrast in thinking and in health is a great message for your son. Be the best beacon for that message.
f1jim

whatever you do - do not give up. keep being the example for your son. is your son overweight? i think you mentioned your wife was. maybe you're right - maybe you need to stop pushing so much & back off. as time goes by and your son gets old enough to read and understand better maybe print out some articles and leave them lying around. children are curious and he may read some of them out of curiosity. it totally flabberghasts me that a mother would not read and learn everything possible to help her own child be healthy and thrive. i don't care if people are fat but when they become parents they need to set good examples and model healthy eating and exercise behaviors. other wise kids do not have a chance. thank goodness you son has got you!

real vegan children:
http://veganhealth.org/articles/realveganchildren

Q: Is it healthy for children to be on a vegan diet?

A : A well-balanced vegan diet is safe and healthy for any stage of life, including infancy, childhood, adolescence, and during pregnancy. Plant-based diets can easily provide all essential nutrients, vitamins, and minerals that growing children and mothers-to-be need. Simply have a variety of whole grains, beans, vegetables, and fruits, and be sure to include a daily source of vitamin B12, such as any common multiple vitamin. Plant-based diets have many important health advantages: Vegans enjoy a reduced risk of heart disease, diabetes, and some types of cancer. Since eating habits are established in early childhood, choosing a vegan diet can give your child the opportunity to enjoy a variety of nutritious foods—and to carry those healthy eating habits into adulthood.

that was from:

http://pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/f ... #VeganKids

I am having an interesting experience with my 26 year old daughter. We raised her as a vegetarian. 10 years + ago my husband became vegan and I have been working on McDougall concept for years and very much in the last 4 years....so she gets an earful. And even before McDougall we were nutrition concerned. She has recently moved back in and now she is totally open to learning and eating well.

Anyway, When she was a kid and as she became less under our nutritional control she ramped up the vegetarian junk food. In the last few years she asks me a lot of questions. NOW her boyfriend is very health conscious- has her watching the HBO-GO health series. She came to me with a snack pack of peanuts/seeds/m&Ms and showed me it was 19 grams of fat. She was horrified and dumped them. She has eliminated soda awhile ago and she must have taken in my protestations about juice because after hearing on HBO that juice is basically sugar water (they give visuals on the amount of sugar in the bottle) she has abandoned juice.

Just saying that you may not win in terms of what your son is eating now but if you are a model and don't oppress everyone in your family then the message will be in his head for later on in life action.

You know, many of
us do follow McDougall without reading the science because it feels right, makes sense. So I don't blame some other for feeling I am a nut and have a possibly false guru. But as others have said here-no one can argue with my results. I have lost 27 pounds, have 90% less problems with arthritis in my feet, sugar is 85, blood pressure the extreme end of low normal, my chol is down 52 points (although darn it, still too high) , I look great at age 62 and take no meds.

(Riva readers may know that I struggle with acid reflux but making much progress)

So be a model, just LIVE it. Don't oppress others. Give information if they ask. Your son will absorb it and eventually do what is right for him.

Riva

Leave a copy of 'Disease Proof Your Kids' by Dr Fuhrman around the house and or 'Dr. Attwood's Low-Fat Prescription Diet for Kids'. Since both titles mention kids, with a little help from the maternal instinct and some curiosity she might just pick them up and read.

I bribe my 13 and 9 year old kids to read some of the books. Even though they are far from eating a perfect healthy diet, they have improved and I know some of the information has sunk in, and as they get older combined with more critical thinking they will have a better perspective to make good choices.

An appropriate bribe for the wife to read something might work.

@f1jim, it's good (although unfortunate) I am not alone in this when it comes to a partner or kids who "can't" or "won't" change. Thankfully I can pass on some of the frustration to others here and get advice, which could be useful. I do hope the light flips on, but at what cost? I don't want it to get to that point, but maybe that is what it takes.

@shell-belle, no my wife isn't overweight, now down to 127 (@ 5'-6"), which is lighter than when she had our son 6 years ago. Unfortunately she has a severe lower back problem we are trying to solve before it reaches surgery. As for my son, he is about 4-0 tall and only 58 pounds, not hefty or husky by any means. I know my wife knows what is good for him and what isn't. She has accepted my cooking and eats predominately what I cook. In her mind she feels my son is missing out on nutrition by feeding him following Dr. McDougall's plan. Not sure what part that is. I do hear many unsubstantiated comments from her, "he needs the milk for calcium" or "we must supplement his diet with vitamins" and "he needs fat (oil) for brain development." These are just three. Now if I can get her to watch FoK as a start....just maybe.

@Riva, I was hoping that seeing the weight loss (now 38 pounds) and improvements in my lipid panel would spur my wife a bit more. I no longer take any medication and don't see a need to visit my family doctor. Her on the other hand, I can't tell you the number of prescriptions she has, I have stopped counting. I still have faith we will work through this, thankfully she does follow (although not as close as I do) McDougall so there is still hope.