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I have been vegan ( and McDougaller in training) for 10 years and my bi-annual medical blood checks have repeatedly confirmed my B12 deficiency. I always ignored the GP's advise for B12 and Vit D supplements.

What you are thoughts? Is it really mandatory to have B12 supplements? What are the long term ramifications ?

More importantly, are there natural products that have B12?

mcfruitarian

Dr. McDougall has repeatedly said that if a person follows an animal-free diet for 3 years or more they MUST take a B-12 supplement. He says the liver stores about a 3-year supply, so when that's gone, you have to supplement. Since you repeatedly had lab work that shows you are already deficient, take the darn pill already before you do permanent damage to your body!

As for Vitamin D, Dr. McD and I differ. He feels a level of 20 is sufficient, and if lab tests show you're below that, just go outside at noon and soak up the sun every day and that should bring you up to normal levels. Most other doctors are saying a level of 30 is minimal and although getting it via sunshine is preferred, they know that realistically most people in industrialized societies can't sit outside for a half hour during a work day and say supplementation is necessary. Each doc has his own suggested dosage, some suggesting as low as 600 iu a day all the way up to 50,000, but the higher number is usually for a short period of time (only 6 weeks) until repeated lab work shows you've gotten into the normal range, then it's greatly reduced. My own doc has me on 5,000 iu 3 times a week. My original lab showed me under 4, and repeated blood work shows me fluctuating between mid-20's to low 30's, so he's happy with that dosage.

I can tell you what happens if you become sick because of deficiency because it happened to me. I had been vegetarian for 10 years and then had a baby. No one ever mentioned B12 to me . Then I started feeling light headed and dizzy and almost passed out a few times. It was B12 deficiency that was so bad I had to give myself shots every day for a few months. I never want that to happen to me again. As for D, I live in an area where it's gray and rainy 9 months out of the year and even if it's nice I shun the sun for fear of skin cancer. I have an appt in a few weeks to get labs. If I show deficiencies, I will take supplements to correct.

You have a B12 deficiency. Don't play around with your health. Just take a B12 supplement.

Thanks all for sharing your experiences and recommendations. I will act on them. I know of the Doc's position but I also recall him saying few years ago that there is no evidence of ramifications. I have not taken any form of medication since I turned vegan and hence my reluctance to any form of supplements. But now I am ready to address these 2 efficiencies in the right way. And hence my post here.

Thanks oregonmom for sharing your experience. This explains my occasional light headiness and dizziness spells. How do you know that B12 is the root cause (and not something else)?

VeggieSue, Can you clarify further whether there is a natural and healthy way of getting B12. It is claimed that sauerkraut contains B12. I have been reluctant because of its salt and alcohol contents.

I welcome any other thoughts on this.

Don't fool around with Vitamin B12 - get Methylcobalamin B12 supplements and start taking them ASAP. You may need to buy them on line or at your food coop - most other places that sell vitamins only sell Cyanocobalamin B12.

I have permanent neurological deficits and neuropathy thanks to low B12 and this was while I was eating tons of meat and other animal products and taking the usual OTC vitamin pills - long before I became a vegetarian and before switching to a McDougall diet. Please, take it seriously. All the doctors recommending this way of eating also recommend B12 supplementation.

Same with Vitamin D - if you aren't getting enough light exposure or have a health issue that affects Vit. D get proper supplementation with D2 (Ergocalciferol).

Read through Jeff Novick's forum for his information regarding both Vit. B12 and Vit. D.

edited - you'll find that Jeff does not recommend trying to get your vitamin B12 needs met with supplemented foods - there is too much variability - safer to take that little pill regularly and know that you have met the requirements for your body. This of course only refers to the B12.

Thanks Vegankit for being specific.

Since I started this post yesterday, things started to make sense. I addition to my occasional dizziness spells, I was wondering whether this is also related to my strong sense of instability in the kayak in spite of 2 years of paddling and other neurologically demanding activities.

I am excited if the B12 supplements can remedy my sense of instability.

BTW, what is the recommended daily dose of B12 Methylcobalamin ?

mcfruitarian - I don't know what the normal recommendation is - I have autoimmune diseases and I just don't hold onto B12 and Vit. D. I'm on a megadoses and go often for blood work to check my levels.

I highly recommend you read Jeff's forum, specifically his stickies - this one for example has info about both Vitamin D and B12.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7828

I also agree that you should take B12. BUT I don't take vitamin D, and feel no need to do so. I live in BC Canada. Dr. Mcdougall explains the amount of sun you need in "the Starch Solution" on page 159. He says that for Caucasians, exposing a large part of the skin to the summer sun for 20 - 30 minutes at one time provides about 10,000 IU of Vit. D. And he goes on to say that "the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition and the National Institutes of Health recommend 200 IU daily". Your body stores extra Vitamin D in your body fat for future use. I believe, as Dr. Mcdougall does, that the new recommended amounts of Vit. D are set too high. Why would nature make us so lacking in something, that scientists have to come up with a vitamin off which they make a fortune? I expect to see in future years studies released saying that supplemental vitamin D is harmful in some way. Hope this helps.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitamind-HealthProfessional/

According to the NIH (as you mentioned Melinda) the RDA is 600 IU Vitamin D for ages 1-70--800 for >70.

Here's B12 info: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-QuickFacts/

I just want to report back that today I got my first injection of B12. Thanks for your reply that I got convinced to do it.

The GP at the clinic says that I ought to be taking injections for next 2 weeks and then one monthly for 3 months and hereafter one every 3 months for the rest of life.

Your thoughts on his recommendations? I am sorry I do not trust most doctors with my diet as they are not trained for that. They are only trained for medicating.

Yeah, that's absurd. Take a few shots if you must and then just get on the oral supplementation. Take a methyl pill a few times a week--that's MORE than you need.

News flash: Most of the population (which eats TONS of meat and fish) is B12 deficient. Please don't eat meat (and risk your health and that of the animals) for that reason. Just take the damn pill.

I'd question any injection unless your B12 deficiency was very low and/or you have a known medical condition which doesn't allow absorption of B12 unless by injection.

Once you have finished the initial trial of B12 injections, start taking pills. After a couple of weeks then have blood work to reassess your B12 levels. There have been a number of peer reviewed medical journal articles showing that oral vitamin B12 is just as effective an injections - your doctor may not be aware of this. Here is one http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004655/oral-vitamin-b12-versus-intramuscular-vitamin-b12-for-vitamin-b12-deficiency.

Of course this only works if you do indeed take your pills faithfully - if not, then an injection every three months may be the best solution for you.



As I mentioned above, I'm one of those who ate tons of meat and fish and had a serious B12 deficiency. Don't eat meat; the only safe way is to supplement.

Thanks for the replies. I have been vegan for more than 10 years and never took B12 supplement untill this week. So yes, i am B12 deficient and have had spells of dizziness and instability. There's no way I am getting flesh from any source (fish or meat) and in any form (cooked or raw) into my body. Period.

My current thinking is that I take 2 more B12 injections over the next 2 weeks. I wait another 2 weeks before I do blood test. Depending on the result, I will decide when I will start taking B12 tablets.

Your thoughts ?