Discussion Board

Ayup.

School should teach kids how to think, not what to think. If schools actually taught kids how to think it would be much easier for them to figure out what a healthy diet looks like.
Dieticians and nutritionists go to school. How many of them do you think advocate Dr. McDougall's diet? If you stop and consider what's been taught as correct or good by our culture, I think McDougallers might be considered trouble makers and drop-outs. That's okay. If the shoe fits, I'll try to wear it...as long as the heels aren't too high.

Being an A student doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter. Sometimes it just means you're willing to be manipulated, brainwashed, pay the dues, and to toe the party line. Jobs was a drop-out because he was too smart....and, yes, probably weird.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44278117/ns ... 6lCu0ccWFE


Learning is a process. Trial and error is a component of the process. If we really want people to learn something, not just to obey commands like programmed robots, we have to stand back and be willing to let them make mistakes. We have to be willing to let them fail to meet our expectations.

When discussing diet, others may feel less threatened if we use more "I this" and "I that" than "you should." Even "you could" is better than "you should." Should can be a big turn-off. It's not the Easy Button. At least not in my experience.

Which of these is easier to swallow?:

1. You should eliminate all oil and dairy and meat and eggs and coffee and alcohol before you have a heart attack and die!

2. If you want to lose weight, improve your health, and lower risk factors for disease, you could start by eating more starch like potatoes, squash, rice, corn, pasta, oatmeal, and bread.

Which one would most people you know want to believe? But what have most been taught about nutrition? What's been drilled into their heads? What is the established school of thought? There's the rub. Additionally, every one of us could point to a "straight A student," a nutritionist or dietician, well-intentioned or not, a product of our greater culture, who could answer every nutrition question "correctly" who we also think is wrong and misleading people.

So...where am I? When advocating a starch-based diet, you can call yourself a smart kid, or you could call yourself a rebel gang leader. Maybe smart kid and rebel are actually synonymous.

How do you spell analogy? I'd like to buy a vowel, Pat.

Some of the language I like to use

"When I eat this way I experienced (weight loss, cholesterol drop, increased energy, etc)"

"I'm following Dr. McDougall's plan which has reversed diseases (or insert their disease here) for thousands of people"

"I stopped eating dairy and not only did it lower my cholesterol but my chest pains went away"

I'm not out to change anyone but put an idea or suggestion their way, and if they want to know more they can ask. I don't want to throw up too much information on them - so I like to give them enough to whet the appetite and then change the subject. If they want to know more I will write down the name of a book or website, or email it to them.

Agnes, you brought this to mind--

Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive
~ Words and Music by Harold Arlen and Johnny Mercer

Gather 'round me, everybody
Gather 'round me while I'm preachin'
Feel a sermon comin' on me
The topic will be sin and that's what I'm ag'in'
If you wanna hear my story
The settle back and just sit tight
While I start reviewin'
The attitude of doin' right

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk upon the scene

To illustrate my last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do just when everything looked so dark?

(Man, they said "We'd better accentuate the positive")
("Eliminate the negative")
("And latch on to the affirmative")
Don't mess with Mister In-Between (No!)
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

(Ya got to spread joy up to the maximum)
(Bring gloom down to the minimum)
(Have faith or pandemonium's)
(Liable to walk upon the scene)

You got to ac (yes, yes) -cent-tchu-ate the positive
Eliminate (yes, yes) the negative
And latch (yes, yes) on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between
No, don't mess with Mister In-Between

Thanks. That was fun. I like fun. Ya know what they say.
"What you focus on grows. You pick what
you want more of." http://www.coastalcognitive.com/What_yo ... _grows.pdf

Angst? No, thanks.
Joy? Oh, boy!

I look at this differently. You got to have the facts first. Teaching someone how to think does no good in a fact based society that we live in, Yes, it is important to have that skill too. But one has to be able to connect the dots with factual information. So in the above scenario, we need to dictate to the teachers what is and is not good nutrition, factually. Not just what is bad or good but why and what happens with different choices. Leave no wiggle room. Refined carbs are poison, Olive oil will run your truck but clog your heart. etc.

Better to have hard and fast rules like smoking. It is never OK to smoke. Period. Want to do it as an adult, then no one will stop you, but that should be an exception that is not accepted.

We (an our kids) are being being bombarded almost every minute of the day with wrong and bad food info. You can't just think your way out. Facts need to intervene. Hard science not just anecdotal information. Like smoking'' You Smoke-You Die" and you Die a horrible, painful death, from cancer. That messages has seem to work the best for smoking .

We need the same message for food. You eat crap and you die. You get fat and get diabetes; they cut your legs off and you go blind. Then you have an heart attack and suffer a long slow painful death from congestive heart failure and at the end struggle for every breath.

The new paradigm regarding food need to be harsh and dramatic.

Dr. John McDougall for Surgeon General of the United States

is what is needed.

J
(getting off my soap box now)

Just a thought here: thinking about something includes being able to evaluate facts and learn how to determine if something is indeed factual or not. You can tell someone that smoking is never good, but for those who struggle, it may take knowing why it is bad and understanding how that conclusion was made.

If we blindly take all statements and say that this or that is a fact, and don't teach people how to thoughtfully consider, evaluate and use reason, then we are no better than the people who are exploiting and lying to the public about their food. I think we need less dictation and more thinking. Those teachers that you want facts "dictated" to are simply and blindly repeating the facts that the last group in charge told them to believe.

Critical thinking is vital.

Fulenn

I have learned to mind my own business unless someone asks me specifically. The general public is too uneducated to get it. I was a vegetarian for 20 years before starting the McDougall plan and even most supposed vegetarians were so misinformed (as I admit I was too) that you'd get a different story from all of them. That being said I am only on day 9 of this diet and bought a second copy of the book to send to my mom for mother's day. But I know my mom and I know she's been looking for something like this.

I disagree. Hard science is all about facts. Lying about a fact doesn't make that fact wrong. The food industry and marketing want us all to "think" their truth is THE TRUTH. They use fuzzy logic to confuse and half truths to obfuscate their message. They want you to THINK and over think their message; until you over think the facts and buy the crap.

The vast majority of the public does not have a clue as to endocrinology or long term large group studies. Yet the food/vitamin/supplement companies come at them will all kinds of nonsense for them to "Think" about (If one is good 10 must be better). And not having the education and dedication, the public critical thinking skills, if they have any, are useless. The have no facts to base the thinking upon.

People get bias real fast when the information supports their bad behavior. I grew up when smoking was the norm. It wasn't until enough facts came out the the government finally took a hard stand. The facts were know for years, but people want to think the facts didn't apply to them. The message has to be hard, clear, concise and frequent. Thinking beyond a certain point is not necessary. Eat crap you die.

Somebody has to tell the truth in this country about food and health. And it need to be done exact reverse from what we have now. Dr McDougalls message is a good one. Eat whole plants/starches/fruits. A little meat or sugar on the side as a rare treat maybe OK once in a while for some. I doesn't need to be thought about. Just followed.

j

I'll sometimes bring it up, recommend a book, share a video and wait to see what kind of reaction I get, and then decide if it's worth continuing.

I was with a friend a couple weeks ago; when she shared with me that her doctor put her on Metformin because her sugar was a little high. "I'm not diabetic, just a little high, so she put me on this as a precaution." So, I took the opportunity to say, "You know that can be controlled with diet and exercise," To which she responded, "I know." I dropped it, we've had similar discussions in the past with negative results. Later that day we were shopping and among her purchases (she lives alone) were two 1 pound bags of Kettle Chips and a gallon of ice cream. Any conversation I could have had at that point would have been useless.

Too many people find it easier to take the drugs than change their habits.

From the opposite perspective I have another friend who has been battling psoriasis most of her 67 years. I sent her the video from McDougall of the woman who got rid of her psoriasis with this WOE. Within hours she had 2 books ordered, called me with questions and within 2 days had changed her diet completely. 2 weeks later she was seeing significant improvement, had lost some weight, loving the food she's eating and will likely stay at least close to the McDougall plan.

I love it when that happens!!

And who gets to decide which facts are true enough to make teachers teach them? There is currently enough dissagreement between diet experts that it would probably come down to a vote--and we don't have enough votes yet to win. So the alternative is to teach people how to make their own decisions. The last thing I want to do is live somewhere where other people make my decisions for me.

F.

I don't want anyone to make a decision for you (or anyone else). But people are not getting the facts. Yes you are right, we don't have the votes to win. I would make Dr. McDougall US Surgeon General.

My point is that right now the "facts" that are be given are so sugar coated the most of the general population can't make a decision. Like Wild4Stars related above about her friend and diabetes. The Doctor said the sugar was "a little to high" and then put here on drugs. How is that friend to know the truth about her disease if she is not given the true facts. Her Doctor knows that diabetes lead to all sorts of nasty complication and problems. Did she have all the facts. Teaching her how to "think" is of no value without the facts. If she is not a MD or been exposed like us here, she will believe whatever is the easiest path.

j

If someone knows how to think, part of that is knowing how to find and rate information. Our school system is designed to snuff out creativity, individual initiative, and analytical thought. How do judge what is "the facts" if you do not have critical, analytical thinking skills? You don't. You just go flip the burgers, pull the switch, push the button, then go home and drink a beer and watch "the circus" on the tele. Are we there yet????

The facts are out there. Some are just more palatable than others. I'd suggest taking them all with a grain of salt, but someone would probably slap me.

Maybe the general population can't make decisions, or rather decisions that you think are good decisions, because they either don't have critical thinking skills or they have them but don't use them.

Be skeptical. Ask questions. Never blindly trust authority, just because it comes at you armed with the "facts." If Dr. McDougall had done that, this forum wouldn't be here. I doubt he'd dismiss the value of critical thinking like you have. If he did, I wouldn't trust him at all. I trust Dr. McDougall because he trusts me to be able to think for myself.

http://www.criticalreading.com/critical_thinking.htm
http://www.arn.org/realscience/kog1asam ... sample.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

I love Spongebob. I can't help myself. Is there a 12-step program for that?

No, sorry, Spongebob the only thing that works is to run away...run awaaaaay from your television set...