Dr. McDougall's Health & Medical Center
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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Actually, a better explanation would be that instead of thinking we started with nothing, that everything (all matter) was and has always been here. This is a much easier line of belief to grasp than one in which everything came from nothing. There are several theories about the beginnings of life but most of them start with the concept that the matter in the universe was always here in some form.
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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:19 pm 
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f1jim wrote:
Actually, a better explanation would be that instead of thinking we started with nothing, that everything (all matter) was and has always been here. This is a much easier line of belief to grasp than one in which everything came from nothing. There are several theories about the beginnings of life but most of them start with the concept that the matter in the universe was always here in some form.
f1jim


From the physicists point of view, this is an impossibility. Consider the second law of thermodynamics [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics]. Entropy is constantly increasing. Ultimately, over time, matter and energy deteriorate and become inert. Yet we see so much organization and energy in the cosmos and even in our own bodies.

See http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... ticle=1072.

The universe boldly declares that it has a Maker. Even what we call "simple" life forms--single cells--are far too complex to been accidentally formed. This is my belief...and I look up to the Creator! :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:11 pm 
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"Ultimately, over time, matter and energy deteriorate and become inert."

I think another way to view this is that matter and energy are constantly changing form within the universe. Energy never disappears, it reverts to matter and vice-versa. i don't believe your analogy holds up. Ask yourself what happens to the suns rays when they leave the sun. They start a long process of conversion and effect that never ends. This is true of all energy and matter.
f1jim

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:44 pm 
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No, if matter or energy always existed it can change form, back and forth as conditions change. It's a tough concept to grasp, for example the idea of a repeating big bang as the universe expands then contracts forcing these changes. It's easier for me to accept everything always existing as to believe something from nothing in the hands of a creator. But I may be wrong, I'll let you know on the other side!
f1jim

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 4:06 pm 
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If we explain the origin of what is by postulating a creator, where did the creator come from? If we can say the creator just was forever into the past, we could also say what is just was forever into the past. Inventing a creator doesn't really explain anything, it just pushes the mystery back a step.

As far as I know, protons are considered identical to other protons, electrons are considered identical to other electrons, neutrons are considered identical to other neutrons. At least, I can't tell them apart. But then, I can't see them at all! :lol:

For all I know, atomic theory could be another made up story. I don't have the time or equipment I would need to verify it for myself, any more than I can verify sacred creation stories from the various religious traditions.

Amazingly, the stuff that this universe is made of seems to be self-organizing. We can assume that means that an intelligence designed it, but other than the self-organization that seems to be going on all the time everywhere, I can't find anything that looks to me like conclusive evidence one way or the other with regard to the existence of such a creator. I can assume the creator exists, I can assume the creator doesn't exist. Either way, it's an assumption I have no way of proving conclusively.

It seems at least possible that such a universe might be without a creator, especially in light of recent (within the last 20 years) theorizing by physicists suggesting that there is a huge number of universes and we live in this one because it just happens to be the one with conditions conducive to matter self-organizing into stars and planets and bacteria and trees and people and computers and the Internet.

It does seem like if there is a creator and the creator liked the content of the creation, the creation as a whole would be friendlier and kinder than it appears to be. Why would a benevolent creator produce a creation so full of suffering and anguish? We can say the suffering and anguish is due to human depravity, but it looks to me like nature all by itself without the influence of human behavior is already pretty competitive and dangerous for most of its denizens. A huge percentage of all the species of creatures that have ever lived have gone extinct for one reason or another.

OTOH, there's a lot of cooperation and mutualism in nature as well. Cleaner fish that remove parasites and irritants from the mouths and skins of larger, carnivorous fish that don't try to eat the cleaner fish. Birds that ride around on the backs of cattle, eating the flies that "bug" the cattle (pardon the pun). Amazingly coordinated colonies of social animals -- ants, termites, human cities. The bacteria that live in the human gut and aid our digestion.

Why doesn't all of nature exhibit this kind of mutualism? Why is so much of it bloody and violent if the postulated creator is benevolent? Why is it that well-intentioned actions can lead to such dreadful consequences? Is it possible that the assumed creator's actions were well-intentioned but poorly considered and thus produced the mess we see?

So the paradox I see is that the universe could be way more horrible than it is, so maybe it was created by a well-intended intelligence. But if it were created by a well-intended intelligence, it seems like it would be way nicer than it is.

Of course, there's the idea Scott Adams (the guy who draws the cartoon Dilbert) proposed in his book God's Debris, which is that an immortal, all-powerful being who had experienced everything might be bored and long to experience non-being. So she disintegrated herself and what we see is the debris left behind, which is gradually working at re-integrating itself back into the immortal, all-powerful being.

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:02 am 
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TominTN wrote:
If we explain the origin of what is by postulating a creator, where did the creator come from? If we can say the creator just was forever into the past, we could also say what is just was forever into the past. Inventing a creator doesn't really explain anything, it just pushes the mystery back a step.



If the Creator is outside of time, then "forever into the past" is meaningless, because the past isn't the past to one outside of Time. All of history, beginning, middle and end, is present (or NOW) to Him. He was in existence before time began, and He does infuse all of time, but He is not bound by time. Beginning, past, end, future, etc...all are words that we have to describe temporal things, and therefore they don't describe One who is NOT temporal but eternal.

The Creator does not "come from" anywhere. He just IS.

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:27 am 
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And that is how I think of all the matter/energy in the universe. It just is! It didn't have to have a creator if it has always been here. The thinking is identical. The writings of Stephen Hawking explain how time, with no real starting point or end point, can exist in our universe. They can be explained with our current understanding of time/space.
f1jim

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:40 am 
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You all might find this lecture interesting:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/cour ... x?cid=1830
I am enjoying it immensely. It's a wonderful lectures series. The universe is indeed beautiful, fascinating and mind-boggling.


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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:15 pm 
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f1jim wrote:
And that is how I think of all the matter/energy in the universe. It just is! It didn't have to have a creator if it has always been here. The thinking is identical. The writings of Stephen Hawking explain how time, with no real starting point or end point, can exist in our universe. They can be explained with our current understanding of time/space.
f1jim


In regard to Stephen Hawking...on the other hand, please see:

http://www.christianworldview.net/2011/ ... nd-design/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/faith ... int-46638/

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19_ ... _29-33.pdf

http://creation.com/stephen-hawking-god

http://doesgodexist.org/JanFeb05/AliceI ... wking.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... ticle=3768

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:41 pm 
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I know there are many believers that see Hawking as such a threat they must vilify him. I am sorry to see that. He is a brilliant mind and regardless of his position on God has gotten us thinking about these issues. I am sorry his views scare believers. There is no need to fear his work or his thinking. He is a human like all of us. He ponders the universe much like we all do. His views on time and space are interesting and thought provoking. He has made me think about the relationships of time and space as well as the ability of time to have no beginning and end. All quite feasible with a bit of understanding of mathematics and our universe. His books brought understanding of very weighty concepts to me. I don't profess to have his level of understanding of these issues but he brought me a bit closer.
Scientists have been at odds with religous leaders from day one. From the time "heretics" suggested that maybe our planet revolved around the sun instead of the other way around they have been branded as evil. For suggesting the earth wasn't flat, etc. Things we now take for granted. Life goes on and our understanding gets better with time.
f1jim

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:43 pm 
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f1jim wrote:
And that is how I think of all the matter/energy in the universe. It just is! It didn't have to have a creator if it has always been here. The thinking is identical. The writings of Stephen Hawking explain how time, with no real starting point or end point, can exist in our universe. They can be explained with our current understanding of time/space.
f1jim


they aren't identical, because energy is created. Time is created. It has a beginning, and it will end. God is not. He has no beginning and will never end.

Everything around us, and I mean EVERYTHING, had a beginning somewhere, and will end, someday. The very words "starting point" and "end point" are temporal.

How can the medium in which the universe exists, the universe which began and will end (or as some believe, it has expanded and contracted over and over again, beginning again, ending again, repeatedly...) how can the very dimension in which we live our lives...everything around us, and everything about our existence has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Yet somehow Time itself does not?

But I do think you're right: the THINKING about the two is identical. Some people believe in a Creator; some people believe in the Universe, and they use language similar to that of spiritual believers. I have a friend who actually says "the Universe is looking out for you" and other similar things. Atheism is a religion, as surely as any faith of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:12 pm 
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I guess I am confused at the logic that says God is outside time but matter and energy are not. I find it as easy to accept that energy and matter (both are the same only in different states) have always been as to believe a creator has always been. In fact, because I can use my senses to detect matter and energy it is much easier to accept that they have always been with us. I have to create words like faith to explain a God I can't use my natural senses to detect.
Look, I may be wrong, there may, in fact, be a creator, despite many years of earnestly searching for him. I may in fact be wrong about all of this. But just as those that believe come by their feelings honestly, so do I. Now what does any of this have to do with following the McDougall plan? Let's get on with it and not fight about whether there is a God or not. That argument will help none of us eat a healthy breakfast tomorrow morning. That will be on each of us as individuals and I promise to do my part. You?
f1jim

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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown


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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:40 am 
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f1jim wrote:
Now what does any of this have to do with following the McDougall plan? Let's get on with it and not fight about whether there is a God or not. That argument will help none of us eat a healthy breakfast tomorrow morning. That will be on each of us as individuals and I promise to do my part. You?
f1jim



:thumbsup: My thoughts, too. Interesting enough discussion, but pretty much off topic ;-)

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The important thing is to make these choices one day at a time and the rest follows. If I do the right things, I don't have to watch the scale or agonize about whether it will work.
by figpiglet

I heart my endothelial lining
by red squirrel


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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:28 pm 
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f1jim wrote:
I know there are many believers that see Hawking as such a threat they must vilify him. I am sorry to see that. He is a brilliant mind and regardless of his position on God has gotten us thinking about these issues. I am sorry his views scare believers. There is no need to fear his work or his thinking. He is a human like all of us. He ponders the universe much like we all do. His views on time and space are interesting and thought provoking. He has made me think about the relationships of time and space as well as the ability of time to have no beginning and end. All quite feasible with a bit of understanding of mathematics and our universe. His books brought understanding of very weighty concepts to me. I don't profess to have his level of understanding of these issues but he brought me a bit closer.
Scientists have been at odds with religous leaders from day one. From the time "heretics" suggested that maybe our planet revolved around the sun instead of the other way around they have been branded as evil. For suggesting the earth wasn't flat, etc. Things we now take for granted. Life goes on and our understanding gets better with time.
f1jim


In regard to the relevance to McDougalling, Jim, this reminds me of a scholar in the field of medical ethics. After much study, his conclusion was that the medical services provided by Christians were about the same as those services provided by others and I would not disagree with that.

So a Christian may McDougall, thinking he wants to be healthy and live a long life in order to glorify God. A non-believer may want to McDougall and have a good body to attract women and avoid diseases. On the outside they may look about the same but their motives may be quite different.

Be that as it may, let us help and encourage one another as we try to be healthy! :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Seen on Facebook!!
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:26 am 
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pinkrose wrote:
So a Christian may McDougall, thinking he wants to be healthy and live a long life in order to glorify God. A non-believer may want to McDougall and have a good body to attract women and avoid diseases. On the outside they may look about the same but their motives may be quite different.

Huh? Wow!
How about we all CHOOSE to eat this way because we feel better doing so. We want to get healthy and stay healthy for OURSELVES.


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