Discussion Board

I intend to get into the nitty gritty details later. I do not have unlimited time on my hands to write EVERYTHING here. There will be typos. I want to, and I will try to, help anyone who asks, but I am a mother of four. I home school part time, run a small online etsy shop, maintain a home (well I TRY), and am constantly searching out the healthiest lifestyle I can for me and mine.
I found McDougall after reading the China Study. I was inspired by the 5% or less of calories should be from animal science for good health and figured I would go all of the way. I agreed with Mr Campbell that the foods we eat should not be refined. I began making changes. I weighed about 150 (Right now I am 132), since my third pregnancy and wanted to at least loose 5 more pounds. I am 5'7" and my real goal of weighing 128 is a real possibility and is always lurking in my mind. I had my cholesterol levels checked yearly. What I had been doing was already working, but following the McDougall diet was working too, and faster. It was great, or so I thought. It's been about three years now being strict about eating only veggies, fruits and unrefined grains, with the occassional monthly pancake day where we allowed real maple syrup. (Yes that is a refined item folks) We also enjoyed birthday cakes, and my husband took the kids out for ice cream or doughnut rewards. I eventually pushed him into sticking more to the doughnuts because they at least weren't full of milk. He began bringing them to share with me too. I admit that I also had a chocolate stash that I tried to avoid. I cooked everything with out oil, I canned the smartbalance omega3 butter. My home was a clean safe have for healthy food. I even ditched the peanut butter since it tends to be full of aflatoxins and McDougall says he really doesn't like the stuff. I kept hearing him play in my head over and over that we ALL that we need from our plant food. We don't need vitamins expect vitamin B12, and even if we eat the same thing over and over like tribes in Southern America we'll be fine! I believed and trusted him... but I was not fine.
If you are still loosing weight following his plan, keep doing it. If, however, you have hit a road bloc, are finding yourself secretly binging on anything at times, you're moody, are easily disturbed during sleep, have skin tone changes, decreases in stamina, have difficulty thinking straight sometimes, slurred speech, having symptoms of preterm delivery, have difficulty bonding or making eye contact with your new infant, have given birth to a child that just won't sleep or needs to nurse constantly, your children have erroding tooth enamel, are hyper active, or even if you can't seem to loose that last five pounds, do I dare even mention Candida here... listen up. (I am very concerned for young mamas especially)
I have had ALL of these things and MORE, and I attribute it to strict adherence to this diet. Event though I would fill up to near bursting on veggies potatoes and rice after my salads and fruit and daily oatmeal I always had the muchies. Munchies are a sign that your body needs something. Give it that right something and the cravings will go away.. and not just for an hour. I was so desperate to figure out what I was missing I looked into raw foodism for nutriet increases and to see if I could do it. (I'm not against coked foods, I was just problem solving). Raw vegan food has no real grains or beans (ouch) and A LOT of nuts instead (double ouch). Mcdougall had put a heathly fear of nuts into my head.
I dicided to look into it more. McDougall's plan is considered by many to be an 80 10 10 plan. That's 80 carbs 10 Protien and 10 Fat. Another group doing this, but raw has a high failure rate, so I guessed that the difference was the starches that McDougall is so fond of. (I liked them too...) Most raw food communities are not 80 10 10. They eat many nuts and don't seem to gain weight. I looked for and easily came across studies that TRIED to get people to gain seven predicted pounds by ADDING nuts to their diets. No one did, despite the high compliance rates. If I remember right they gained half a pound on average... I bet they felt REALLY full too.
Well, I didn't want to gain half a pound, but I was miserable and had to try SOMETHING. I decided to forgo some of the starches and trade all of them out for a day for as many nuts as I liked. I felt full. I actually turned down treats offered me without any inner longing. I tried it the next day.... this time with Lara Bars. I ate two and I was as satisfied and if I had snuck in five packages of Honey Oat Granola Bar! I looked at the labels in shock. The calories per package were about the same. One is of course based on nuts and dried fruits, the other on the beloved and trusted whole grain oats (yes I know the oats are dry and tha is has honey aka sugar, but they are pretty benign otherwise). My point is nuts are FILLING, and they stopped my CRAVINGS. (I know you see the word 'raving' in craving.... tere is a reason why). There was more though... A LOT more, emotionally...within that very day and since continuing this way I have been able to maintain an inner calm. My children are calmer with with more nuts in their diets too! I needed FAT.... it has been about a week now eating as many nuts as I want while cutting out the grains, potatoes, and beans, supplementing with fish oil and my skin is actually getting better too.
For those of you wondering, I haven't gain an ounce, in fact I seemed to have dropped a little. My belly isn't bloated from over stuffing on grain. (Should I even mention that the thin white film that has been on my toungue and could never be scrapped off for over a year now is GONE) This goes way BEYOND weight maintenance or cholesterol goals.... My body is HEALING! My wrinkled skin, my mental clarity, my hormonal balance... 'the works'. I am so THANKFUL to be shown a way out of the dogmatic McDougall 'Beware of Fat' trap! (You know he doesn't demonize only oil, but highly fatted whole foods too.) I just wish I had known sooner, before I or my children were harmed by this. (Again, if you're overweight, not eating fat is a pretty good idea... go at least whole food fats only... nuts, avacado,...dare I say up to 3 oz of fish every other day on this site for the EFAs. I suppose algae might be more appealing
I could go on, but demands of family are making it hard to complete this. I can drum up links to studies if anyone really needs them, but you can generally use google with the right mix of words to find them. Many are on pubmed. More importantly my body feel younger and more capable and it's only been a week. I can tell there is a longer recovery here. Will I ever go back to starches? Well yes I suppose I will, but I will limit them. Am I gorging on fish? No, I'd rather not. Eating meat is still rather unapealling, but I am mostly interested in health here. I have been taking fish oil and tons onf walnuts in home made Lara Bars. I am SURE my children have been suffering too (I have been very strict at home... I want only the BEST for MY kids). I am defeated here and as long as it not over sugar I simply WON'T refuse them. I can't... I'm crushed at thinking I may have harmed them! I hope to prevent this from happening to ANYONE else. Please feel my love for you when you read this. I may not have met you yet, but truly I care.
So HOW MUCH FAT DO YOU NEED? Joel Fuhrman has a great video on this on You Tube. 10% is as low as you can go without causing major damage, but whay risk it. 15% is as low as anyone should ever really recommend in my opinion now and Joel goes as far as to say the range is 15-40%, depends on the individual.... NO OVERT FATS.... that is the key. AND KIDS NEED AS MUCH AS THEY CRAVE. (Often even up to 50%) This can go bad if combined with sugars, so keep them seperate and doubt you'll have issues. (Better yet get rid of refined teeth loving sugars)
A last note, a little nitty gritty on EFA's. PLEASE GET ENOUGH (1Gram of DHA twice that of EPA. an 1:1 ratio of Omega 6 to 3 is best 4:1 at worst. Start slow, it acts as a natural blood thinner. Beware of horomone inducing sources of EFA's like flax. You might be OK with it, but brush up on the good AND bad of lignans... companies are pushing mostly the good so that part is easy to spot.)
I felt it better to just respond to the EFA article that McDougall wrote:
(*my comments in parenthesis as seen here with an asteriks. McDougall's comments in parenthesis do not start with the *)
http://drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html
EFA DEFICIENCY
Deficiency of EFA in experimental animals causes lesions mainly attributable to faulty cellular membranes, such as sudden failure of growth, scaliness of the skin, increased water loss by a change of skin permeability, impaired fertility, kidney abnormalities, increased susceptibility to infection, and weaknesses in the cardiovascular system (Since following Mcdougall's slanted advice on EFA's I AND my newborn have suffered through ALL of these symptoms. He goes on)....EFA deficiency does not occur in people following low-fat diets, because these diets are high in vegetable foods, rich in EFA.
McDougall then goes on to quote:
Feeding diets containing as little as 0.1 to 0.5% of the calories as linoleic acid is sufficient to correct all signs of essential fatty acid deficiency. However, for optimal health higher intakes are recommended. Various factors affect the dietary requirement of EFA. Animal experiments and epidemiological studies lead to a recommendation that the intake of w-6 linoleic acid should be decreased to as low as 2-4 % of the calories and that of w-3 fats be increased to levels higher than w-6 linoleic acid for the prevention of chronic diseases prevailing in the industrialized countries (Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 200:174, 1992).
(*My studies have indicated that Enfamil added dha and aa in the amounts of 1.25% with a ratio of 1:2 at the time of their clinlical studies on brain development on infants. This is equal to about 1 gram of DHA per day. Aa can be developed from linoleic acid. They found intellegence tests highes in the dha:ara group. The amounts they decided to put in the formula were based on the amounts of these EFA's in American breastmilk. For those who live by the sea in small communities like the Tismane the amounts of these EFA's occur 4x's that level. Did I mention that children breastfed from mothers who provide this amount of EFA that feed off of fish consistantly have higher intellegence scores? The brain is mostly made of DHA and in VERY important for proper brain development.)
McDougall in the same link quotes:
Most likely, the heart benefits of a Mediterranean diet are due to it being a nearly vegetarian diet. The Mediterranean diet is good in spite of the olive oil (Am J Clin Nutr 61:1321S, 1995).(*I now noticed the emphasis this article seems to put on the word NEARLY. Yes I know he's quoting, but I do not think he is entirely listening)
(same link as above)

Body fat represents that saved "metabolic dollar" for the day when food becomes unavailable (which hasn't happened lately). (*Sure, I agree if one needs to loose A LOT of weight. I have found however I was NOT getting enough fat from just unrefined veggies, fruits and grains. I didn't know this was the problem. About every three weeks I would find myself binging on chocolate or doughnuts. I felt so guilty... any weight I gained didn't last more than a day or two though, but I knew I shouldn't do it. I thought I was just addicted to sugar. What I found out was that I was probably too low in fat! Now I AGREE with McDougall.... don't run out and pile on the oil, but I now DISAGREE that eating too many fatty whole veggie foods like nuts should be avoided.)

McDougall in the same article again:
The safest and healthiest way to get your EFA is in their natural packages of starches, vegetables, and fruits. Here they are found in the correct amounts in protected environments surrounded by vitamins, minerals, fibers, antioxidants, and other phytochemicals to make them balanced nutrition. If you desire higher concentrations than are present in these foods then you will want to include more nuts, seeds, and soybean products in your diet. (*I AGREE) Remember, these are high fat foods and can contribute to obesity. (*Soybean, yes probably, nuts and seeds.... no way! I 've seen studies on these myself and I have to object.) Research suggests that there may be a connection between frequent nut consumption and a reduced incidence of coronary heart disease (Nutr Rev 54:241, 1996).(*He is giving me WHIPLASH. How about you?)
Flaxseed (as a whole seed) is one of the richest sources of alpha linolenic acid and is also a good source of soluble fiber. Consumption of 50g (1 2/3 ounces) of raw, ground flaxseeds has been shown to increase the amount of w-3 EFA in the blood and tissues and to lower the cholesterol by 9% and LDL "bad" cholesterol by 18% (Br J Nutr 69:443, 1993). Blood sugar was also decreased. Even though the benefits of EFA as oils on cancer growth are questionable, the lignans present in flaxseed seem to have an antitumor effect when fed at the early stages of cancer promotion (Nutr Cancer 26:159, 1996). Plant foods are the only source of phytoestrogens, like isoflavones, coumestans, and lignans, that are believed to be beneficial for many problems, including menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis, cancer, and heart disease (Annu Rev Nutr 17:353, 1997).

(*One thing NOT being mentioned about the glorious flaxseed is that these wonderful lignans act like ESTROGENS in the body. Estrogen can give you a horomonal imbalance if you don't need it. Too much estrogen accelerates aging... it realy aggravated the arthritis I developed while on this diet and 'enhance' my moodswings. In Canada they have found that pregnant women supplementing with small amounts of flaxseed to have a much larger risk of miscarriage. Chia ight be a better option as it is a lot lower than flax in lignans, but it is still considered very high compared to other foods and in my opinion should be taken very carefully. I DO think this diet led to the one and only miscarriage I had.)

I'm not going to argue with you point by point but I will mention that you've been a board member for over a year and you only have 22 posts logged.
Could you not have asked for help earlier?
This is what the board is for.
People are usually eager to help.
Sometimes the health board gets overlooked but you can always take your concerns to the main board as you did with the link to this post.

One thing: nuts aren't forbidden.
You're allowed them if you don't have much weight to lose.
I don't see why you're up in arms about this.

Another thing: teeth enamel eroding?
I seriously doubt this WOE would cause that. Unless you were eating acidic foods like, maybe, pineapple???
Or kiwifruit?
But then you'd have to be eating them by the bucketload.

Full disclosure: I didn't read much more than the first few paragraphs.
There was so much anger from you I feel I need to come back later and finish it off.
More as and when.
Til then I'll let others chip in if they are so inclined.

Perhaps we can still help you. I hope so.
If after all this you feel you need to leave us then go in peace.

PLEASE DON"T JUDGE ME.

I DID ASK FOR HELP BEFORE THIS HAPPENED. I WAS IGNORED WITH NO ANSWERS! The forum did not help, the 'experts' did not help, McDougall did not help, but asked me to email him privately and not here. I did and NEVER heard back. I am a VERY busy mom. I don't have time to hang around forums all of the time, nor do I have time for the run around I got!

The post is long I know... because its IMPORTANT.
I NEVER said nuts wre forbiden. They are discouraged though... nothing is ever really said about eating them to make sure one get enough FAT. ALL of the posts and comments are about reducing or limiting FAT. I have even read MCDOUGAL saying we make our own DHA. We do, BUT not enough.

I have been a member here for a while, but I have been following the diet longer. Funny, I just read a post not too long ago by Jeff Novack where he responded about Lara Bars. Look it up and check out the tone. It is not exactly inviting.... more of an emergency only kind of secret trick.

This is a lifestyle, it shouldn't need remediation when followed strictly. I don't think McDougall expects such strict compliance. I a posting of his on FATS and OILS he mentions a woman who comes to him unable to loose that last 40 pounds with oily face and hair. His tone is judgmental for sure.

Even though that woman wasn't me, it could have been. I began putting cocnut oil on my face to help with the dryness. My hair was oily for some reason too, I can't explain why. The only difference is I needed to loose 5 lbs, not 20.

Sorry to rant... this story of mine goes so much deeper. I just want to raise the warning.

I may not be able to respond often as I would like because I am doing my duties at home. But if anyone has and real question on what to beware of, maybe "I" can help.

.

Rychei, I am so sorry you have been having such a hard time and feeling so unwell. The good news is you have discovered what you needed in your diet and are feeling better now. There is no way you have harmed your children by providing the foods you provided as a strict McDougaller.

By the way, lots of folks here have dabbled in Dr. Furhman's books and diet advice, and yes, he is much more in favor of high fat foods like nuts. Many of us have taken a little McDougall, a little Furhman, a little Esselstyn, and found just the right mix for our individual needs. I think Dr. McDougall is clear about oil, a highly refined product with essentially no nutritional value, being harmful to MOST, especially those who need to lose weight. But eating nuts, which as whole foods contain other valuable nutrients, is not forbidden by McDougall. It will certainly derail weight loss for lots of people and is therefore not part of the McDougall maximum weight loss program, but you are not part of that group.

Again, I am sorry that you have suffered and stuck with something that was not working for so long. Hopefully your baby is now sleeping well and nursing more normally and you can worry less. It sounds to me like you are just being the best mom you can be, so let yourself off the hook!

If you say you are not doing well on this diet I believe you. However, I would caution you to make sure that all of the negative things you experienced that you attribute to this diet really are due to the diet. You wrote such a long piece that it will take a while to think about some of the things you wrote but one thing that caught my eye was that you seemed to attribute a crying wakeful baby to your diet. (I am assuming you nursed all your children. And possibly had natural child birth) Years before I even heard of the McD diet I gave birth to six children. Some were cranky and wakeful and behaved as you said in your post. Some were really easy and sleepy and more content. I was on the same SAD diet for all of them. One of my daughter's five children got eczema when her nursing mom had tomatoes or dairy to eat. She is two years old now and is eczema free unless she eats dairy or tomatoes. Why didn't the others have this problem? We don't know.

You have probably been doing enough reading to know that association does not prove causality nor does correlation. RE, nuts and seeds: they are not forbidden on this diet. But if you are putting on weight while eating them then that is a problem. You do not have this problem. Also I believe that small children can probably benefit from nuts and seeds and maybe avocado. (I could describe the horrible negative effects of my eating avocado and ending up in the ER. Some people just can't eat some things.) Maybe you are eating some starches that your body just cannot tolerate. Perhaps when you ate small amounts of a substance the intolerance did not show up. But eating large amounts made a difference.

If you are reading Fuhrman's book you will see he says that if you need to lose weight, one ounce is the maximum amount of nuts and seeds you should eat. Some people can eat a lot more and not lose weight. Chef AJ discovered that she was eating too many nuts and seeds, cut them out and lost weight, slimming down considerably.

Maybe you are one of those people who do not have the ability to convert the ala in plants to EPA and DHA. Some people can't and if you can't then perhaps your kids inherited this also.

I think you did the right thing to search and study and find a solution to your problem. It doesn't sound like you are now eating anything that isn't healthful.

I do not think you get eroded teeth from the McD diet. But those donuts, pancakes, syrup, ice cream and cake add up.

didi

Yes I am angry. RECOMMEND them (nuts) is not what they do. Limit them to only small quantities is more likely. Nuts avacados and such are treated like the bad guys on the shelf that can be used 'sparingly'. I imagine since most people are doing this for weight loss and not longevity the 'limit' them tone makes sense. Doesn't work as a STRICT diet for longevity.

Please notice I emphasis STRICT. I followed what I felt the spirit and heart of the program. Being permissible generally isn't in my nature. I usually have to be all or nothing with my foods. So if someone says to limit something I generally just x it out to avoid temptation.

Rychei,
Could your teeth, skin, and health problems have been caused by the doughnuts and the chocolate? They are both processed foods high in transfats or butterfat and sugar. You mentioned that you allowed them.

Maybe you are eating some starches that your body just cannot tolerate. Perhaps when you ate small amounts of a substance the intolerance did not show up. But eating large amounts made a difference.

I do not think you get eroded teeth from the McD diet. But those donuts, pancakes, syrup, ice cream and cake add up.

didi[/quote]

Thank you for real consideration. It is truly thoughtful. I think you are right here. During the process I began doing something called the Pulse Test. It's a book that is in the public domain.

Anyway I found that I am allergic to soy and white broad beans... probably other beans too.

As far as not being able to make DHA etc. Likely.

I don't tink eating those things only once every three weeks would cause errosion, but the errosion was my baby's teeh and he was mostly nursing and since he's the baby I watch him like a hawk and so he pretty much gets NOTHING I wouldn't give myself. Sometimes dad sneaks him something so a sweet once per week maybe. Heck I even eliminated Bread from the house because of yeast problems. I allowed the kids only whole wheat tortillas and organinc corn chips (yes both have oil... I personally avoided these.... only oil foods in the house)

I have to go to dinner with my family. Sorry I have to go. I do appreciate your insight. Allergies could definately be part of the problem, but I feel so much better (like night and day) with the fatty foods.

Again thank you for you insight. I know I dropped a long winded bomb... sorry I know it will take time.

Last commet, really. I know those things didn't cause my skin problems. I used to literally live off of those things when I was a teenager and NEVER had a problem before. I was seeking those things out probably because of the fat. When I have enough nuts and avacados to feel complete I don't bat an eyelash at the junk.

I think you may do best, just taking those elements of Dr. McDougall, Dr. Fuhrman, and one or two others you respect, and make your own plan.
Something that fits well with you and your entire family.
Doesn't need to be perfect and it can change over the years.

Just make it good for your family's mind, body, and spirit.
Make it joyful and relaxing rather than perfectly in line with any one doctor.
There is more to life than perfect eating. Like happy children with a happy mother.

Wish you well.

Ive posted this before in this forum, but google gluten and enamel/tooth erosion. Seems to be pretty common.

It takes a while for gluten/wheat to dissipate from the body. Me personally, I am not wheat/gluten intolerant BUT I do have an issue if I eat too much processed prepackaged foods containing wheat and/or added gluten. Fresh ground wheat doesn't bother me however. Sourdough with high wheat gluten does.

Seems in earlier posts you talked about your baby have a low percentile. Maybe gluten in your milk is a problem. A donut here or there as often as every couple of weeks could indeed cause issues, along with other stuff eaten. I remember you asking about shedded wheat. Are you still eating that? There are so many variables.

I'm a little confused because in one sentence you said you were strictly following the McDougall plan, then in another talk about donuts and other sugary, SAD treats. Given the fact that is clearly not "strict", I can't take your claim seriously.
Also, as I've read all I could before I started this woe, nuts, seeds, and avocados are only to be avoided if you're trying to lose weight. During times of need, say extreme fitness, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or as a child who is growing, these things can be increased. Really all you have to do is make some of the recipes and you'll see there are nuts and avocados listed in quite a bit of them. Unless you were trying to follow MWL, which I certainly hope not for a breastfeeding woman or children.

I am leaving the thread up because I trust people own intuitive abilities to draw from this thread what they will. I sense that we are all going to come to the conclusions our experiences lead us to.
I hope the original poster finds the eating plan she feels meets her requirements. I also hope she emotionally finds peace as well.
f1jim

Dr Mcdougall has always replied to me when I have emailed him - infact I have been quite surprised by his promptness and meticulousness in replying- how many doctors of his stature would do that ?