Failure of Diet

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Failure of Diet

Postby mike at the river » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:15 pm

I've been following McDougall diet for 6 mo or more. Did inititially lower total choleserol to 171 but now, 4 mo later, its up to 211, trig 140, HDL 85, LDL 104. Yes, I've been very strict, low-fat vegan whole foods, no meat, dairy, salad oil, etc. I've read McDougall, Dr Campell, Dr Barnard, Dr Esselstyn. Now seeing a lot of criticism on-line also. Is there "cherry picking" of data, or do these diets really work? Why is my cholesterol going the wrong direction? thanks....Mike
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby pinkrose » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:01 pm

Mike, sorry you are disappointed.

Have you taken any meds (at any time) to reduce your serum lipids? :?:

What is your BMI? :?:

Some have found that by following the MWL program [http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/pdf/pdfmc050100nl.pdf) and that by reaching a BMI in the low-normal range (less than 21) they have achieved excellent results.

In other words: adherence and time are usually effective.

Only you can decide to what extent you are willing to follow the guidance here on a long term basis and then know if this will work for you as it has worked for many others. If you want to look for reasons not to do it, you can find them but if you want to look for reasons to follow the program, see:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html

I wish you the best regardless of the course you choose. :-D
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby sweetfruitlover » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:54 pm

Hi Mike,

Hopefully Jeff will respond soon too, but I wanted to write that my cholesterol went down a lot when I first came back to a plant-centered diet after eating animal foods and higher in fat in my 30's. I was really pleased, and I wasn't that strict - I ate animal products once in a while still, and added nuts and seeds to my grains, beans, fruit and veggie staples.

Then after a few years I changed to a raw, fruit-based diet, went strictly vegan, and also very low fat. When I checked my lipids again, my cholesterol and TG had gone way up! My LDL was especially high. I was shocked. I had just assumed it would be even lower.

Anyway, I switched back to a starch-based diet, and checked my cholesterol again, and it was heading back down even though I hadn't been off fruit for that long. I'm guessing that my body does not do well on fructose, and likes starches (which break down mostly into glucose) instead.

So perhaps you might be sensitive to the mix of whole plant foods that you're eating too. Did you change anything between that first lab work and the second? For example, oatmeal and beans tend to lower cholesterol, while fruit raises it for certain people.
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby Maer » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:04 pm

Wow! Is this true, that fruit can raise cholesterol (or I should say, too much fruit/fructose?) If so, what's too much???

Any comments, Jeff (please!)?

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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby kittyadventures » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:31 pm

Well I believe 2 to 3 pieces a day is the recommended amount.
if you are already having cholesterol issues you will want to keep your fruit amounts low.

Over time when your body has healed and adjusted you may be able to up that a bit.
Who knew an Apple a day, really would keep the Doctor away!
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby Lani Muelrath » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:44 am

mike at the river wrote:I've been following McDougall diet for 6 mo or more. Did inititially lower total choleserol to 171 but now, 4 mo later, its up to 211, trig 140, HDL 85, LDL 104. Yes, I've been very strict, low-fat vegan whole foods, no meat, dairy, salad oil, etc. I've read McDougall, Dr Campell, Dr Barnard, Dr Esselstyn. Now seeing a lot of criticism on-line also. Is there "cherry picking" of data, or do these diets really work? Why is my cholesterol going the wrong direction? thanks....Mike


It's important to remember also that the numbers are an indicator yet not necessarily the holy grail. Dr. McDougall speaks to this at the Advanced Study Weekends while going over the results of the lipid profiles that one can elect to have analyzed during the weekend.

In September at the ASW, for example, he shared about patients he has who have high cholesterol levels yet their carotid arteries are clear as viewed in sonogram, which gives you a picture of what's really going on inside, and they are eating correctly. Genetics are going to have some play here and you can't just let the numbers be your definitive guideline. It can be an indicator, and of course we all want those numbers down, yet it doesn't tell the whole story.

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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:52 am

Lani Muelrath wrote:
mike at the river wrote:I've been following McDougall diet for 6 mo or more. Did inititially lower total choleserol to 171 but now, 4 mo later, its up to 211, trig 140, HDL 85, LDL 104. Yes, I've been very strict, low-fat vegan whole foods, no meat, dairy, salad oil, etc. I've read McDougall, Dr Campell, Dr Barnard, Dr Esselstyn. Now seeing a lot of criticism on-line also. Is there "cherry picking" of data, or do these diets really work? Why is my cholesterol going the wrong direction? thanks....Mike


It's important to remember also that the numbers are an indicator yet not necessarily the holy grail. Dr. McDougall speaks to this at the Advanced Study Weekends while going over the results of the lipid profiles that one can elect to have analyzed during the weekend.

In September at the ASW, for example, he shared about patients he has who have high cholesterol levels yet their carotid arteries are clear as viewed in sonogram, which gives you a picture of what's really going on inside, and they are eating correctly. Genetics are going to have some play here and you can't just let the numbers be your definitive guideline. It can be an indicator, and of course we all want those numbers down, yet it doesn't tell the whole story.

Lani


I just read somewhere that when it comes to cholesterol levels, diet accounts for 20%, while genetics accounts for 80%. I don't know if that's true, and I can't remember where I read it, but here's another article that said the same thing.
http://yourhealth.suttereastbay.org/201 ... h-concern/

If you are not eating the foods that damage the endothelium, you're a step ahead of the game. If there's damage from the past diet, it will be able to heal itself and produce more nitric oxide which protects the blood vessels and makes good cholesterol work better at removing bad cholesterol. That's my understanding of what Dr. Esselstyn has said, anyway. If genetics causes the body to produce higher levels of cholesterol, maybe there's not much you can do about that. But you are doing something to help keep your pipes smooth by not eating meat, eggs, dairy, and oil. These are the foods that damage the endothelium.
You don't have to wait to be happy.
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby sweetfruitlover » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:19 am

I can't speak for how fruits affect others, but eating a fruit-based diet definitely raised my LDL and TG, compared to a starch-based diet before and after it.

But remember, this was a fruit-based diet. I was eating a low fat raw vegan diet, so I ate many pounds of fruit every day. I ate lots of greens too, but that was a LOT of fructose, and my body didn't like it.

Eating 2-3 pieces is a nice moderate amount and is probably healthy for most people. Some people can handle quite a bit more than that, and others much less. I think people have varying abilities to convert fructose into glucose (the healthy pathway for fructose in the body). Once that capacity is maxed out, any extra fructose usually either gets converted to TG or uric acid.
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby israelIma » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:30 pm

I was about to start a new topic about my current diet disappointment, but I saw your post and I'll just add to it.

I have been following this plan for two months. My very painful arthritis has abated in my knee. I have been feeling great and looking forward to a follow-up blood test. SO, I just got the results. My total cholesterol remained essentially the same (283 in November and 263 today), and my triglycerides went up significantly (still within normal range) and my HDL (good cholesterol) went down (again still in normal range). I was looking forward to seeing the total cholesterol fall a lot as it did when I followed this diet many years ago.

I have been absolutely strict on fats, meat, and dairy. I have been non-compliant on alcohol and coffee. Is it possible that this is what is keeping the cholesterol high? I know that cholesterol is not the whole story, but I can't figure out why with the diet I am eating that I would not see more results (even with the alcohol and coffee (neither in excess)).

I was SO looking forward to showing my doctor (who wants to put me on statins) that I could lower the cholesterol through diet.
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby Lani Muelrath » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:59 pm

israelIma wrote:I was about to start a new topic about my current diet disappointment, but I saw your post and I'll just add to it.

I have been following this plan for two months. My very painful arthritis has abated in my knee. I have been feeling great and looking forward to a follow-up blood test. SO, I just got the results. My total cholesterol remained essentially the same (283 in November and 263 today), and my triglycerides went up significantly (still within normal range) and my HDL (good cholesterol) went down (again still in normal range). I was looking forward to seeing the total cholesterol fall a lot as it did when I followed this diet many years ago.

I have been absolutely strict on fats, meat, and dairy. I have been non-compliant on alcohol and coffee. Is it possible that this is what is keeping the cholesterol high? I know that cholesterol is not the whole story, but I can't figure out why with the diet I am eating that I would not see more results (even with the alcohol and coffee (neither in excess)).

I was SO looking forward to showing my doctor (who wants to put me on statins) that I could lower the cholesterol through diet.


Remember, if your total cholesterol goes down, so will your HDL and LDL because they comprise the count. And 20 points sounds like moving in the right direction!

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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby michaelswarm » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:37 pm

From my personal experience, coffee definitely bumps cholesterol up.
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby israelIma » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:26 am

So I guess I am enjoying my last cup of coffee for awhile!

Also, I wonder if eating A LOT of potatoes can be bad? I am using white potatoes as my base starch, but I find myself eating 2-3 potatoes for snacks throughout the day. Should I cut back on white potatoes? (I don't like sweet potatoes very much.)
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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby didi » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:47 am

Here is something I found. There is lots of info on the net about coffee and cholesterol.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6242467/ns/ ... olesterol/

Despite this information about the type of coffee you drink, I believe I read somewhere that filtered coffee can also be a problem.

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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby Lani Muelrath » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:04 am

didi wrote:Here is something I found. There is lots of info on the net about coffee and cholesterol.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6242467/ns/ ... olesterol/

Despite this information about the type of coffee you drink, I believe I read somewhere that filtered coffee can also be a problem.

Didi


Didi, the article - as many others I come across - always mentions "between 5 -6" or "several cups" of coffee a day. Might there not be a world of difference between the "one cup a day" and the "bottomless pot" coffee drinker? Let me know if you come across a reference that addresses this. Thanks!

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Re: Failure of Diet

Postby israelIma » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:07 am

I just want to comment that though I posted this under "Failure of Diet" I do not believe that the diet has failed. I have lost 11 pounds, my arthritis is no longer the main issue in my life, as most of the pain in my knees is gone, and I generally feel great.

The blood tests that I just got back show that the cholesterol is not as low as I'd like, but all other values but one are totally normal. I do have an abnormal (and rising) ANA which as I understand is associated with auto-immune disease (lupus primarily) but it may be associated with my celiac. I am seeing a rheumatologist next week, so we shall see.
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