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But where does that leave some foods like grilled Japanese sweet potatoes (yaki-imo) which I like occasionally, but are, in fact, to the right of the red line in calorie density because when grilled they lose enough water weight to put them over? "
Second, if you have seen my Calorie Density talk, or read my articles on it, you know I stress that while calorie density is a good marker of one's likelihood to overconsume a food, it is just a number and not the only thing that impacts our over-consumption of calories. There are several other factors that I review in the lecture and here in the forum, many of which are also in the 10 Point Checklist for MWL. These include:
- The % fat
- the water content
- the fiber/Cal content
- the degree of processing, such as:
- the form of the fiber (intact vs disrupted)
- the form of the food (liquid vs pureed vs solid, intact vs ground, and/or emulsified)
- the amount of chewing required.
- the variety of foods consumed (limited vs numerous) also known as “sensory specific satiety' or “the salad bar effect"
- the hyper-palatability of the food (high fat, sugar, salt, combos)
The 50/50 plate method is a guideline and the “method” means “up to” 50% non starchy veggies and/or fruit”. It’s not a black and white rule that the plate be 50/50, It might be 25/75 or 33/67 or 40/60 (non-starchy veggies and/or fruit/starch).
Everyone has to find their “sweet spot,” which may be the most important concept, and is a combination of water content, calorie density, satiety, fiber/Cal, food form (liquid vs solid) etc. Calorie Density just happens to be the best surrogate marker of all this.
This is how it is taught in the lecture at the 12-Day Program too.
These are all guidelines to help people find their sweet spot.
Anyway, that's sort of where I am. I will say, though, that I have found when snacking on very low calorie density foods, like daikon and eggplant, that I can end up over the course of a day eating much more that 4 lb of food. It can go up to as much as 8 or 9 pounds! And I feel uncomfortable when I do that, but because I didn't take satiety into account I can't stop.
This past week I cut back on those foods and concentrated more on potatoes and okayu (Japanese rice gruel) which leaves me satisfied, but not uncomfortable.
The questions you raised in your article about water content are interesting. Since water itself is not satiating for any amount of time, I have always wondered how they help make other foods, like wet whole starches, satiating.
Still, I feel like I have to track calories.
To the best of our knowledge, there are no randomised controlled trials that have achieved a greater average weight loss over a 6- or 12-month period, without mandating regular exercise or restricting total caloric intake.9, 10, 41 The key difference between this trial and other approaches to weight loss was that participants were informed to eat the WFPB diet ad libitum and to focus efforts on diet, rather than increasing exercise. The mechanism for this is likely the reduction in the energy density of the food consumed (lower fat, higher water and fibre).
MINNIE wrote:Doug, what an AMAZING transformation!! I am sure this will be an inspiration to others.
!
JeffN wrote:But where does that leave some foods like grilled Japanese sweet potatoes (yaki-imo) which I like occasionally, but are, in fact, to the right of the red line in calorie density because when grilled they lose enough water weight to put them over? "
You caught me at a good time when I am writing a new article on the issue of Ultra processed foods and it also addresses many of these issues which are currently circulating in my head.
dougtokyo wrote:. For example, take bananas and potatoes. Both have about the same calorie density! But to me anyway, bananas are not satiating at all. I can gobble up 4 - whoosh there goes over 400 calories - and not feel any sense of being full. On the other hand 400 g of potatoes, nearly a lb, is more satiating.
What's the difference? In your sweet spot you have fruits pretty far to the left. But if I start in on them I can't stop. Probably because they are sweet. I just ate two apples, and will limit my fruits today to just those two. But just those two vanished quickly and totaled 273 calories! That probably means cutting back on some starches later today to avoid having too many calories.
So what do you think really causes satiety in this situation?.
Here are examples of ”Foods with similar calorie density, but other qualitative differences, and the effect on overconsumption” https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=62161
JeffN wrote:dougtokyo wrote:. For example, take bananas and potatoes. Both have about the same calorie density! But to me anyway, bananas are not satiating at all. I can gobble up 4 - whoosh there goes over 400 calories - and not feel any sense of being full. On the other hand 400 g of potatoes, nearly a lb, is more satiating.
What's the difference? In your sweet spot you have fruits pretty far to the left. But if I start in on them I can't stop. Probably because they are sweet. I just ate two apples, and will limit my fruits today to just those two. But just those two vanished quickly and totaled 273 calories! That probably means cutting back on some starches later today to avoid having too many calories.
So what do you think really causes satiety in this situation?.
In regard to fruit, we do see this here and in the programs on occasion and why we say,
“In regards to fruit, Dr. McDougall stated long ago that if you want to lose weight you may want to limit your fruit consumption to two servings per day because some people have an tendency to overindulge in fruit. That being said, fruit is very low in calorie density, and we believe that eating fruit is a great way to still achieve your weight loss goals; however, if you find yourself eating copious amounts of fruit every day and are not seeing the results you want, that is an indicator that you should slow down on your fruit consumption.”
This was even noted in the satiety studies where they tested the satiety of foods both subjectively and objectively and both short term and long term. Fruit produced good satiety short term, but not long term. The satiety passsed fairly quickly and the subjects became hungry again. The best overall satiety, both short term and long term, came from minimally processed starches (potato, oatmeal, etc)
Regards
Jeff
dougtokyo wrote:I do feel that the most reliable thing to do is continue to track total calories eaten rather than a "ratio" like calorie density. The ratios just have never done it for me.
frozenveg wrote:dougtokyo wrote:I do feel that the most reliable thing to do is continue to track total calories eaten rather than a "ratio" like calorie density. The ratios just have never done it for me.
Doug, I appreciate your honesty and your determination to continue tracking calories. I think you derive a strong psychological benefit from the tracking--accountability and self-control. I often do the same; I track for weeks, and then I feel I can coast on the ratios. Then I go back to tracking for a while. But if you don't mind doing it daily, continue! Congratulations, and good luck int he future! May you never regain!
dougtokyo wrote:For example, take bananas and potatoes. Both have about the same calorie density! But to me anyway, bananas are not satiating at all. I can gobble up 4 - whoosh there goes over 400 calories - and not feel any sense of being full. On the other hand 400 g of potatoes, nearly a lb, is more satiating.
What's the difference? In your sweet spot you have fruits pretty far to the left. But if I start in on them I can't stop. Probably because they are sweet. I just ate two apples, and will limit my fruits today to just those two. But just those two vanished quickly and totaled 273 calories! That probably means cutting back on some starches later today to avoid having too many calories.
So what do you think really causes satiety in this situation?
Thanks.
a-great-hunger wrote:dougtokyo wrote:Doug, I would wager that the complex carbohydrates in potatoes induce long term satiety over the simple sugars in fruit. Bananas in particular are much faster to digest. Incorporating the fruit as part of a meal that includes more fiber, protein, and complex carbohydrates (greens, beans, and potatoes) would likely make them more satiating than eating them as a snack.
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