Denise

[shell-belle]

If one person say i eat meat and diary because i like them, i have nothing to say. He is right.

yes he is right that he likes the taste NOW. but i have 2 things to say when a person tells me that & here they are :

"tastes change"
and

" if you stop eating it, you will stop WANTING to eat it"

[ulialen]

If one person say i eat meat and diary because i like them, i have nothing to say. He is right.

yes he is right that he likes the taste NOW. but i have 2 things to say when a person tells me that & here they are :

"tastes change"
and

" if you stop eating it, you will stop WANTING to eat it"

Yes. i agree with you. that is true.
i also have changed my taste.
However if someone say to me "i eat meat because i like it and i know that it is an unhealthy food but i like it ", for me he know the danger and make a choice knowing such thing. and i have nothing to say of that.
Very much people say such thing.

[landog]

I object to the title of this thread.

Why are we on a first name basis with Ms Minger??

[Theodore]

I'll never forget the first time I read her critique against Dr Campbell. I remember wondering how someone so beautiful could be so wrong. But the more I learned the more I realised: he isn't wrong, it's Ms Minger that's wrong. And very quiet since Healthy Longevity's blog came out, if I may say.

[Skip]

Denise Minger and many other paleo eaters say that they have tried to be vegetarian, vegan, or plant based eaters and after a while got sicker than they were before they started.

Then, after switching to diet X (X being paleo in this case) they have felt better for a long time. How can you argue with this self experimental point of view.

After all, didn't most of us eat a non-plant based diet and felt sick, made the change to plant based and got well. What if you made the change to a plant based diet but didn't get well? Would you still support the research that promotes it?

Self experimentation is the ultimate science for an individual...the trial by error approach......

[BlueHeron]

I'll never forget the first time I read her critique against Dr Campbell. I remember wondering how someone so beautiful could be so wrong. But the more I learned the more I realised: he isn't wrong, it's Ms Minger that's wrong.

This completely cracked me up.

[didi]

Cracked me up too. I read it and passed on then my brain reversed and I went back and read it again. Made my day.

Didi

[healthy-longevity]

Heeeeeeere's Denise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heWprUncqIw

This is an absolutely perfect example of why Dr.McD refuses to call himself a vegan. In her talk, Ms. Minger never mentions that Dr. M has said many times that there are lots of unhealthy vegans. The point isn't veganism but healthful eating. Which all the plant based gurus espouse. I can't off hand remember all her arguments but I do remember the one about Seventh day adventist vegans and vegetarians having a higher rate of all cause mortality than seventh day adventists who eat fish. However, if you look at the numbers she gave, the difference appears to be small and they are comparing ovo lacto vegetarians to those who eat fish. Which to me is another reason not to eat milk and eggs.

The PrimitiveNutrition videos and HealthyLongevity pretty much counter all her arguments on this video.

Nor do I see in her talk that she gives statistics and studies showing longer lifespans and better health in "paleo" eaters.

Didi

In regards to the “secret” “recent reanalysis” of the all-cause mortality among the fish eating and lacto-ovo vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists, the 1999 paper that Minger cited does not contain the data she is referring to, and I am unable to locate such data in recent review papers that I have checked. Does anyone know if this data she stated has been published in any peer-reviewed journals? (giving her the benefit of the doubt that this data is not fake like much of the other data that she cites)

The data for all-cause mortality across all of the Seventh Day Adventists vegetarians by itself is misleading as all-cause mortality was greatly dependent on the length of adherence to a vegetarian diet. For example, the risk ratio in one of the Adventist studies found that those Adventists that adhered to a vegetarian diet for >17 years compared to <5 years was 0.70 after controlling for non-dietary risk factors.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.full

As the authors of this study reported elsewhere:

“Thus, when interpreting the findings from these studies, there remains the possibility of bias due to changes in diet. Of particular concern is that a subject’s baseline diet reflects a change in dietary pattern due to illness. In the Adventist studies, the author had the opportunity to relate two reports of diet (in 1960 and in 1976) to the subsequent risk of all-cause mortality and found that subjects who reported changing from weekly meat intake in 1960 to no meat intake in 1976 experienced a non-significant 20% increase in risk relative to those who remained as weekly meat-eaters over the 17-year interval. This finding is contrary to all other findings from the Adventist populations, indicating decreased risk for very low meat intakes. One possible explanation for this unexpected effect might be that subjects may have quit consumption of meats due to an illness that was ultimately fatal. This is similar to the “sick quitter effect,” shown among smokers in which those who quit smoking in response to illness were likely to have biased the protective effect of quitting the smoking habit toward the null.”
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Nutrition-Modern-Joan-Sabate/dp/0849385083

I also noticed that Minger used absolutist language in her claims regarding the lower rates of mortality among the vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists being unrelated to a decrease in animal food intake, despite the fact that the researchers found a lower rate even after controlling for non-dietary risk factors, and also found that egg and meat intake was independently associated with an increased risk of all-cause mortality in one of the studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6720674

[veggylvr]

So far there seems to be a connection between meat and cancer and fats and heart disease. I do not know if low carbers have angiograms to prove the halting or reversal of coronary disease. If they do then their opinions should be explored.

Dr. Davis is supposed to have CT scans which show improvement in coronary arteries from his no wheat low carb program. Maybe someone can find results of his work in a peer reviewed journal.

The problem with finding definitive answers is that it takes years to develop diabetes, heart disease, cancer etc. Any of us could think we are in good health for years and years--until some illness strikes--both low carbers and starch eaters. For most of us not involved in any study, we just have to do our homework and hope we have made the right choice.

Didi, do you really believe you've made the wrong choice? There is no peer-reviewed journal supporting Davis's contentions, and even if he has CT scans showing "improvement", it would depend on what kind of wheat-laden crap (ho hos", ding dongs?) that his patients had been eating prior.

The low carbers do not have angiograms showing reduction in heart disease. I asked and asked. I questioned why Eades, Atkins, and Davis didn't do clinical studies, rather than simply suggesting that their "hundreds and hundreds of patients" showed improvement. All I ever heard was that it takes money to do clinical research. Didn't Atkins have enough money to do at least ONE study? Taubes has made millions on his low carb books. Couldn't he use some of this for clinical research to support his claims? If he proved that low carb truly lead to better health and reversed coronary disease, his next book would be an even bigger seller!

I don't know Denise Minger's motives. I tend to believe she's just someone who was a junk food vegan who ended up feeling sick, so she bashes veganism and now eats raw meat (eeeeww!). I suspect she believes what she says, but that doesn't make it true.

I sure wouldn't bet my health on her being right.

[bunsofaluminum]

I'll never forget the first time I read her critique against Dr Campbell. I remember wondering how someone so beautiful could be so wrong. But the more I learned the more I realised: he isn't wrong, it's Ms Minger that's wrong. And very quiet since Healthy Longevity's blog came out, if I may say.

[RichardK]

If Denise Minger had formal credits she'd be the David Irving of nutrition. Just another (cholesterol- and climate change)denialist on the block pushing her infantile gimmicks for the unfortunate ones who are willing to listen. While pushing her grand idea that the global biomedical community is wrong when warning against saturated fat and elevated cholesterol, she puts her in the exact same category as the flat-earth society and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

She claimed to be a vegan who ate 5 portions of soy products everyday, after while she adopted the Douglas Graham all-fruit and greens raw-food 80/10/10 diet. She is invested in the appeal-to-nature fallacy from the waist down and officially recommends Kurt Harris MD -style paleo diet that puts its followers in a risk of severe hypercholesterolemia in a very short period of time.

[ulialen]

For people who think that a low carb diet can be not only no dangerous but also used to cure some deseases, can you reply to this question:
excluding unknown people and not verified low carb studies, can you indicate to me some for example famous person that is cured with low carb diet from a cronic desease.
I speak of famous person only because it is difficult to verify the people that they addrees in their study and because really they trick very much in their studies.

We can address not only usual people in many studies that are cured with low fat plant based diet in very good studies but also famous person cured with plant based diet: clinton, williams and many many other.

I repeat. I am not interested in famous person. I want only to know of them because low carber trick very much in their studies.
And it is difficult that a rich and famous person put his health in the hand of a dangerous diet.

[didi]

veggylvr, I am trying to see what there was in what I wrote that made you believe I think I made the wrong choice. However, if I do ever think I made the wrong choice I will do something else.

Didi

[VegMommy]

...because low carber trick very much in their studies...

I know we've discussed this before and I'm pretty sure we won't ever agree, but I just can't let things like this go. I honestly and truly believe that everybody promoting one diet or another is doing it sincerely.

Isn't it possible for us to enjoy and believe in our diet without impugning those who promote something else?

[VegMommy]

...pushing her infantile gimmicks..

See my previous post.