Discussion Board

first of all
-hi to everyone here
I have been lingering here for awhile
and now have joined the forum

I guess I am still puzzled about how to get enough
protein ,calcium,vit d and zinc in my diet
without animal foods
which I am determined to stop eating because

IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT !!

I have read DR McDougal's books but still confused

help

Hi beachedgirl,

You didn't say which of Dr. McDougall's books you read, but he spends a considerable amount of ink on the protein and calcium questions in most of them. Maybe it would help to watch the DVDs?

It might also help to turn the question around. What makes you think you aren't getting enough of these nutrients?

thanks for the response serenity

"It might also help to turn the question around. What makes you think you aren't getting enough of these nutrients?"

PROBABLY because I read way too books on nutrition and of course they all say different things

most say that a strict vegan diet will cause deficiencies in these nutrients

oh and I have the max weight loss book and the healthy heart one
I have also read the okinawa book and the china study
and the rice diet

and many many more !

overload

maybe I should go back and read these books again

I am at work so I do not have the books with me

anyway
what amount of protein and fat (in grams)
do you guys eat daily

percentages were always difficult for me -not a math whiz

I am probably trying to make this too difficult

LOL . I too read all the nutrition books - are you old enough to remember Adele Davis?

Anyway now that I have a better idea of what the gist of your question was, let me give you a better answer (although I think the short answer is good too.) Dr. McDougall's conclusions are backed by diligent scientific research. And most of the other MDs associated with VegSource or PCRM have come to similar conclusions. Dr. Campbell (China Study) talks about reductionism - don't get too hung up on the small details. The overall consensus is that a plant based, low fat diet is best and provides adequate nutrients.

Regarding protein - the best example Dr. McD gives is that human breast milk is 5% protein. How can a grown adult require more than an infant who is doubling his size in a matter of months? (Unless, of course, the adult wants to double in size too. ) That's simple for me to remember.

Regarding calcium - I can visualize the chart that Dr. McD shows: The greater the intake of protein, the greater the incidence of osteoporosis. And the cultures with the highest intake of calcium have the highest rates of osteoporosis. Again easy to remember. And makes you begin to question just exactly who thinks that calcium cures osteoporosis. (Oh yeah, the dairy industry.)

Now regarding micronutrients like zinc. If you eat some beans and whole grains you should be fine. (If I remember correctly from looking them up in the USDA nutrient tables.) Remember that the RDAs were effectively set by politicians and are based on people eating the SAD. So who says that they are correct? And wouldn't it make sense that the food we were intended to eat would have the correct proportion of these nutrients. The idea that our food will sustain us well if we eat it as close to how it grows as possible is another simple idea that keeps me grounded with all the other "reductionism" swirling around.

Vitamin D doesn't come from food but from the action of the sun on our skin. So if you live in a Northern climate, you might have a legitimate concern there. Dr. Esselstyn said at the Healthy Living Expo that he has his patients take Vit D supplements. (He's in Ohio, I think.) I'm in So Calif and I try to get out in the sun for a few minutes regularly. But I admit that since my dog died a few years ago, it's not as consistent as it once was. I try though. The soymilk I use is fortified with Vit D and Vit B12, so all-in-all, I just don't worry about it. I would recommend that you relax too. Plant-based, whole foods sure makes the equation easier.

Best wishes.

The book, The McDougall Plan, thoroughly covers all the nutritional questions you raise, answering each with well-documented research and citing published scientific data to support the material. I continue to find this book in particular, extremely valuable for nutritional data -- a sort of handbook for questions that, 23 years after the book's release, continue to be raised and cause concern for many. There is also a wealth of information on Dr. McDougall's home page on this site. But whatever you do, if you do not yet have the book, The McDougall Plan, I highly suggest that you get it and read it again and again. I still do, and I've had my copy for 20 years. There is no better way to a healthy life.

THANKYOU so much everyone
I feel so welcomed

okay I will go back and read again till it has sunk in

serenity I don't think I remember Adele
excepy my grandmother Adele

Actually she did me some good, in that her recommendation to use nutritional/brewer's yeast cured my eczema very fast. But her recommendation for all that protein was just wrong.

There have been extensive studies done since then re the amount of protein needed by humans, and what types, and that research makes it clear that we need FAR less than the average American consumes. Even the RDA is twice as much as most people need. In fact, research shows that if you eat enough calories to meet your energy needs, using whole foods, vegetables, etc., you will automatically get as much protein as your body needs... and that's even without including beans or other higher-protein plant foods.

In fact, too MUCH protein is far more of a nutritional problem for those of us who are not living through a famine. Too much protein sets up an acid/alkaline balance problem that causes our bodies to have to leach calcium from our bones in order to buffer the metabolic acid from the excess protein. Result... often, osteoporosis. Too much protein can be hard on kidneys, and can apparently exacerbate inflammation problems in some people.

You should make a point of getting in some leafy greens every day, as they are an excellent source of calcium and other minerals, but realize that if you are McDougalling, your need for calcium is considerably lower than if you were eating the higher-protein Standard American Diet (SAD). The excess protein in the SAD promotes calcium loss, even when extra calcium is taken as supplements or in dairy foods. The cause of osteoporosis is NOT calcium deficiency. Instead, it is usually just the result of a lifetime of excess protein consumption. In a minority of cases, it can also be caused by other factors, such as hormone imbalances, but generally it's a function of protein intake. Also, the types of amino acids (protein components) present in dairy and other animal proteins, in general, produce more metabolic acid than do proteins in plant foods, so you are ahead of the game when you simply switch to a plant-based diet.

You might want to take a vitamin D supplement if you live in a northern climate and/or can't get out for at least a half-hour of sunlight per day.

Other minerals, such as zinc, magnesium, etc. are also abundantly supplied by a good-quality McDougall diet. Be sure you are eating salads and cooked green and yellow and red vegetables along with your starches, beans and fruits. The veggies and fruits have the higher mineral and other micronutrient density, compared to grains, so you need to make a point of including plenty of them in your diet. They are also metabolically alkaline, and so good for those who worry about calcium and other mineral balance.

Pumpkin

The only supplement Dr. McD recommends is B-12, if you follow a strict vegan diet for at least 3 years.

Of course, some foods are supplemented with B-12, too.

I think any studies saying vegan diets are deficient in anything else either overestimate what one needs (like calcium) or looks at people who follow very poor vegan diets (high fat, junky foods, limited vegies).

We've followed a McD diet for years. The only problem was when my husband felt tired. He was tested and found to be deficient in B-12 (he didn't like the idea of supplementation and thought he might be fine without it). There was no deficiency in anything else. He added a vitamin supplement and is now fine.

I think the B-12 is more important if you are older, because one's ability to absorb the vitamin often decreases with age. So the "having foods supplemented with B-12 around the house and sometimes eaten" approach didn't work.

thankyou so much for the advice -
I guess I have been seeing so many people talk about how the vegan diet lacks nutrients in so many ways I was thrown off

I know in my heart vegan is the way to go
and now with all of your help I will stick with it