Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby didi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:59 pm

Fuhrman's book Eat To Live is, according to Fuhrman, a fast weight loss method for those who have been having trouble losing and who, on his diet can lose weight quickly and still be very well nourished. I have heard Fuhrman on several occasions say that he does indeed eat carbs (or starches) but that he doesn't have to lose weight fast.

Dr. M's buffet table at Santa Rosa looks to me like an eat to live buffet table with starches at the end of the line, after people have chosen greens, vegetables raw and cooked, and soups. If it were starch based it seems the starchy casseroles would be at the beginning of the line where people would choose these first. But I may be mistaken.

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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby didi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:09 pm

Re the amount of food mrweetabix named to get only 550 calories. There was a recent very interesting experiment done in which a group of people were isolated and given a raw food diet. After a couple of weeks on the diet, they lost weight, lowered blood pressure, cholesterol etc. It took about eleven pounds of raw food per day to get enough calories. I also read that zoo gorillas die of heart disease just like humans. One researcher took away the pellets of vitamins mixed with some other stuff (they looked like cookies) and fed them just raw food as they would get in their natural environment. They lost about 65 pounds and lowered risk factors for heart disease. At first they missed their pellets. They went from eating about 4 hours per day to eating several hours per day (as they would in the wild).
(At first the gorillas missed the manufactured food pellets but had to eat what was available. Just like your kids will miss the junk you take out of their diets and will end up eating good stuff if they are hungry enough and that is all that is available)

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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby John McDougall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:11 pm

I have made that same conclusion and have often threatened to reverse the order on the buffet table so that people eat their salad last like I hear they do in Europe.

I teach the Maximum Weight Loss Program (an approach which emphasizes green and yellow vegetables) less enthusiastically than before because people do not do well in short and long term without the starch.

Short term they don't like the food as well, are hungry between meals, and have intestinal distress (gas and pain and upper acid indigestion).

Long term, without satisfaction delivered by starches, compliance falls off.

I believe in a starch-based diet -- green and yellow vegetables and salads are side dished.

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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby chewy » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:20 pm

dr. mcdougall,do you favor certain starches like starchy vegetables over grains at your program(served at all meals)s?are your top ones,potatoes,rice and corn or does a grain such as oatmeal figure just as prominently ?do you still serve puffed rice,puffed corn and puffed millet as well as real foods corn thins?is there anything you would update in your MWL book?-would you still include rice cakes on the daily menu?i love that book-great recipes!this is the plan i like best -got me to 102 pounds at 5"3.
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby Callalilly » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:53 pm

I have followed both Eat To Live and McDougall. Eat To Live is so hard to follow. It is almost torturous! I agree with Dr. McDougall, you are not as satisfied with your main dish as a salad. Then you end up falling off the plan. What I do like about Dr. Furhman is the use of raw nuts, seeds, and avocado. I love those foods and I don't need to lose weight so I enjoy them. Dr. McDougall's recipes are just so much better and doable too. Everyone loves them. Not everyone loves Fuhrman recipes, my husband HATED them! He loves McDougall recipes. Also, Fuhrmans plan will send you to the poor house, so expensive!!!!
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby didi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:04 pm

Re salads or starches. I don't see what the fuss is. I eat four times a day at 8, noon, 4 and 8 in the evening. I shoot for 1200 calories but I am sure it is higher. Sometimes I make a gigantic bowl of salad with lettuce, mushrooms, red peppers, tomatoes, carrots or sweetpotatoes, onions, and sometimes asparagus or cucumbers and generally what is cheap and looks good at the market. I mean bowl, like a big serving bowl. I usually have oatmeal and fruit for breakfast. Sometimes for a meal I feel like having a nice sized sweetpotato. I make a vat of soup at a time that has lots of vegetables plus rice and lentils in it. Sometimes I will have a bag of frozen vegetables with rice or a potato. I don't know if I have a starch based diet but I eat plenty of starches. However, I do control the portions. If I am going to be at my daughter's house or if I take a plane, I bring sweetpotatoes and fruit or homemade hummus sandwiches on sprouted whole grain bread. All food that is easy to carry in my big handbag. I have been t2 for twenty years, take no meds and have fasting sugars of between 75 and 85.

I have never heard Dr. McDougall say leafy greens and vegies are bad for you or that starches have more nutrients than other vegetables, just that they are more satisfying. It seems to me that if people want to use his maximum weight loss plan or Fuhrman's plan with more salads and vegetables and they get tired of the vegetables for what ever reason, then what is the big deal-- their appetite will cause them to stick a potato in the microwave or boil up some rice or pack some beans into a tortilla. A problem would arise if you get tired of vegetables and salads and grill a burger or eat dairy or processed food. But if you are committed to some sort of fat free plant based whole foods diet, then does it matter if you are satisfied with vegies or starches or some combination that suits you? Both doctors as well as Esselstyn are wildly successful at getting people thinner and healthier.

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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby greentea » Sun May 01, 2011 7:24 am

didi wrote: But if you are committed to some sort of fat free plant based whole foods diet, then does it matter if you are satisfied with vegies or starches or some combination that suits you? Both doctors as well as Esselstyn are wildly successful at getting people thinner and healthier.

Didi

Very well put Didi. These ways of eating are all so similar, and differ on small points. Eat the way that works for you, and let us put these tiresome Mcdougall vs Furhman threads to rest once and for all.

Jeff addressed this beautifully: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21046
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby simoncat » Sun May 01, 2011 5:41 pm

Hi, Mr. Weeatabix! I think Joel Furhman is a kind man and actually wants to promote veganism. I think he is trying to do it subtly by weaning people away from meat gradually. How people eat is kind of like religion. If you "bang" them over the head with your beliefs on how they should eat, they usually become more resistant. However, if you slowly coax them, they are more likely to listen and more likely to try a different way of eating. I think McDougall and he have a lot in common and are probably friends. Peace be with you!


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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby GreatWallManitou » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:16 pm

I've listened to everything McDougall & Fuhrman have ever said that's available on DVD several times again & again & again with a fine-toothed comb and have taken written notes. I sum up the differences: McDougall is an obesity specialist. Fuhrman is a "catch-up" specialist i.e. he believes the SAD diet we consumed before adulthood has caused us nearly irreparable damage (the operative word being "nearly") and that we need to spend the rest of our adult lives overcompensating for the nutrition that we missed out on while growing up.

The problem (in Western countries) isn't so much deficiency as it is excess. The problem is so many are so fat. So when I become Surgeon General I'll order everybody that's got >22 BMI to adhere to McDougall's principles. Then when they achieve <22 BMI we can talk about catch-up, nuts/seeds, limiting starches, &/or the starchiest starches.
BMI 22.0 total cholesterol 116 trigs 119
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:02 pm

McDougall is an obesity specialist. Fuhrman is a "catch-up" specialist
I think this mischaracterizes both of doctors. They both specialize in getting and staying healthy and overcoming all the chronic, degenerative diseases of modern society. They both talk quite a bit about obesity because it is the one, visible, obvious symptom of SAD and is very very common. Speaking about obesity is an excellent way to reach the most people, to get their attention and get them interested.
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby cbs » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm

Dr furhman is like 811 with some cooked veggies and beans. he promotes i believe 1-2 ounces of nuts/seeds a day. i think that is fine for some but too much for many people here who need to and are trying to lose weight. in grains and vegetables if eaten sufficiently, there are EFAs that these arent necessary. in fruit they are low in EFAs so he has a point including them if you arent eating starches.

you can eat a lot of fruit on that diet which is why some 811ers go to that. but if you try to fill yourself up on fruit sugar and low calorie vegetables, you will constantly fight hunger and obsess over food. a lot of people then binge on SAD foods i notice. so fruits and vegetables mostly alone isnt sustainable from my point of view long term. ever since i started eating potatoes, i could finally be satisfied without stomach pain, severe bloating and spending a lot of money on food. in 811 the people are always stuffing themselves to cut cravings and will spend $100 or more a week on food. i'm sure furhman followers must spend about as much. with starch you dont have to and i feel better, more energy and life is easier now. but i think furhman and mcdougall are more alike then different. i actually feel better now having some lentils in my diet. but i think furhman is too much into supplements and excess and mcdougall is proven through time. i like this way of eating! :D
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby ella » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:17 pm

I think there are many correct approaches to a plant-based diet.

I'm finding that most agree that the healthiest plant based diet should not have added fats in the form of oils, vegan margarine/mayonnaise, etc, but allow nuts, avocado, olives, whole grains, legumes, fruit and veg with minimal sugar. I agree.

I think Dr. Neal Barnard said it best during a radio interview I heard. He said there are many ways of following a plant-based diet; you just have to find what works for you. Some folks need more protein. Some more veg and less starch. Some more starch and less veg. I totally agree. We are not cookie cutters.
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby afreespirit » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:48 pm

:thumbsup:
cbs wrote:Dr furhman is like 811 with some cooked veggies and beans. he promotes i believe 1-2 ounces of nuts/seeds a day. i think that is fine for some but too much for many people here who need to and are trying to lose weight. in grains and vegetables if eaten sufficiently, there are EFAs that these arent necessary. in fruit they are low in EFAs so he has a point including them if you arent eating starches.

you can eat a lot of fruit on that diet which is why some 811ers go to that. but if you try to fill yourself up on fruit sugar and low calorie vegetables, you will constantly fight hunger and obsess over food. a lot of people then binge on SAD foods i notice. so fruits and vegetables mostly alone isnt sustainable from my point of view long term. ever since i started eating potatoes, i could finally be satisfied without stomach pain, severe bloating and spending a lot of money on food. in 811 the people are always stuffing themselves to cut cravings and will spend $100 or more a week on food. i'm sure furhman followers must spend about as much. with starch you dont have to and i feel better, more energy and life is easier now. but i think furhman and mcdougall are more alike then different. i actually feel better now having some lentils in my diet. but i think furhman is too much into supplements and excess and mcdougall is proven through time. i like this way of eating! :D

:thumbsup: Agree with this!

The McDougall Plan is much more do-able and real-world (than Fuhrman's and others). And Dr. McD is MUCH more than an "obesity doctor". This is a plan for everyone.
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby misterE » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Dr. Fuhrman's focus is on phytonutrients. He does not pay any attention to the macronutrient-ratios like low-fat/high-fiber etc. He believes that fat and sugar are healthy as long as they come as plant-based-foods (nuts/avocado and fruits), which provide phytonutrients. Dr. McDougall's focus is on macronutrient-ratios.

One of the negative aspects of Fuhrman’s-diet is that it's very low in glucose. Glucose is the "molecule of life" and its main sources are starchy-foods like grains. Also calorie for calorie, if you were to follow Fuhrman’s-diet (or a raw-food-diet), it would be either a high-fat or a high-sugar diet, or both… considering he limits grains due to its low phytonutrient score.

I have seen too much research regarding macronutrient-ratios and health to ignore it, for instance low-fat/high-fiber increases insulin-sensitivity and boosts SHBG, high-starch/low-sugar decreases triglycerides, etc. I'm not convinced that we can ignore the macronutrient-ratios as long as long their is plenty phytonutrients. I believe that phytonutrients are extremely important, however we should get our phytonutrients from vegetables, herbs (like raw-garlic), and teas. We shouldn’t start feasting on high-fat/high-sugar plant-food and give up the grains. Doing this gives you “the best of both worlds”; plenty of phytonutrients plus a favorable macronutrient-ratio.

McDougalls-diet is much cheaper, more sustainable, and actually is backed by research in regards to reversing heart-disease and diabetes. Dr. Fuhrman is right in regards to eating a plant-based diet, but is wrong when it comes to what sources of calories you should consume. I believe the optimal-diet is low in fat, low in sugar, high in fiber, high in complex-carbohydrates and moderate in plant-protein.
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Re: Dr Fuhrman = Wrong but right

Postby ella » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:47 pm

I missed Dr. Mcdougall's comment on this and just read it. It sounded like he was talking about me! Starches (whole grain that is) fill me up and keep me satisfied. If I tip too heavily on the greens and less on the starches, I am so hungry all day long. It's awful.

I had forgotten how filling and satisfying the simple potato is! Why there are still vilified is beyond me. Insanity.
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